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Red Flag 1 01-18-2013 18:10


medic&commo 01-19-2013 11:16


Originally Posted by Kyobanim
Maybe you could use PETA members instead. Just sayin. . .
Most have agreed that PETA members would be a poor choice for one reason or another.
But I suggest they would be the perfect specimen:
1. Reduce the PETA population
2. Because of being scrawny, malnurished and frail - if you can stick them & keep them alive...
3. They are like more like caprines than you might think - remember defecating in others wounds, eating the wound dressings...

And as in my class, maybe there will be an outbreak of Anthrax wiping out the herd, and we'll have to repopulate. To be so lucky!

medic&commo 01-19-2013 12:16

Unknown quote
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers". -Unknown

chester 01-19-2013 15:25

Here is the actual bill. I'm not a lawyer but to me it sounds like this will not end life tissue training as it is written. The "when appropriate" in paragraph (1) is encouraging.

(a) REPORT.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than March 1, 2013, the Secretary
of Defense shall submit to the congressional defense
committees a report that outlines a strategy, including a
detailed timeline, to refine and, when appropriate, transition
to using human-based training methods for the purpose of
training members of the Armed Forces in the treatment of
combat trauma injuries.
(2) ELEMENTS.—The report under paragraph (1) shall
include the following:
(A) Required research, development, testing, and
evaluation investments to validate human-based training methods to refine, reduce, and, when appropriate, transition
from the use of live animals in medical education
and training.
(B) Phased sustainment and readiness costs to refine,
reduce, and, when appropriate, replace the use of live animals
in medical education and training.
(C) Any risks associated with transitioning to humanbased
training methods, including resource availability,
anticipated technological development timelines, and potential
impact on the present combat trauma training curricula.
(D) An assessment of the potential effect of
transitioning to human-based training methods on the
quality of medical care delivered on the battlefield,
including any reduction in the competency of combat medical
(E) An assessment of risks to maintaining the level
of combat life-saver techniques performed by all members
of the Armed Forces.
(b) DEFINITIONS.—In this section:
(1) The term ‘‘combat trauma injuries’’ means severe
injuries likely to occur during combat, including—
(A) extremity hemorrhage;
(B) tension pneumothorax;
(C) amputation resulting from blast injury;
(D) compromises to the airway; and
(E) other injuries.
(2) The term ‘‘human-based training methods’’ means, with
respect to training individuals in medical treatment, the use
of systems and devices that do not use animals, including—
(A) simulators;
(B) partial task trainers;
(C) moulage;
(D) simulated combat environments; and
(E) human cadavers.
(3) The term ‘‘partial task trainers’’ means training aids
that allow individuals to learn or practice specific medical procedures

Eagle5US 01-19-2013 15:34


Originally Posted by chester (Post 483786)
Here is the actual bill. I'm not a lawyer but to me it sounds like this will not end life tissue training as it is written. The "when appropriate" in paragraph (1) is encouraging.

As I wrote in my post some time ago-:rolleyes:

Tamaya 01-19-2013 19:33

We used goats in 1977 in AMEDDS for aviators training at Ft Sam Houston, TX. Practiced procedures like cricoid thyrotomy, venous cutdown, insert lung tubes, debridement of wounds, etc. The training was amazing and the life saving techniques invaluable. Hard to believe they would abort this type of training to save goats rather than educating soldiers to save humans.

Whiplash 01-21-2013 23:48

I highly doubt that the army will stop this training it is far too beneficial for us medics to not have. NO ONE would want a medic working on them who has only validated his skill on training dummies. But the only way PETA and other organizations find out about some of the training we do is because people run their damn mouths

spottedmedic111 06-04-2014 09:05

As I recall, the animals purchased for our training were destined for slaughter anyway due to their advanced (2-3 years) age making their wool too coarse to harvest for clothing. We got them malnourished, infested, and miserable. We pampered them for 30 days with regular grooming, check-ups, and twice daily feedings. OK, they got fingers in their butts but I think some of them enjoyed it! In the end they feel a needle as they're anesthetized...that's it. They're not aware of the rest of it. From the goat's perspective, they get it pretty darned good given the alternative. In exchange, Soldiers get treated by the highest quality medics on Earth.

NurseTim 01-17-2021 17:55

So, what was the outcome? I remember medics talking about (admin edit) “various labs” when I went to shake’n bake paramedic school on Bragg, in the early 90’s. It sounded like an excellent learning experience.
To me, it seems that initial training with simulators, to get to know what works, then “training labs” to cement the knowledge in.

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