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drone/counter-drone
Old 10-17-2017, 21:14   #1
frostfire
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drone/counter-drone

Well it's a matter of time. The first time I saw saw these suckers on amazon and on the shelves, I was sure I wasn't alone in foreseeing their weaponization

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/24/pe...l-isis-drones/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...IS-drones.html

700 millions vs. 200 bucks drone bought online
Mon Dieu! Why not the FRENCH approach:
http://time.com/4675164/drone-hunting-eagles/

A buddy who just got back mentioned they are now modified to shoot small arms as well. I am not as concerned about ISIS using them....but the precedence. Dropping things is one thing, but an improvised, disposable, forward observer to multiple mobile mortar teams (Benghazi multiplied by several order)? I wager our embassies, facilities, etc. are not drone-proof.
AWG and DARPA better come up with something fast
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Old 10-18-2017, 06:29   #2
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700 million seems a bit much,, but that's the way the 5 sided outhouse rolls..

The birds on the other hand present good value for the punch,, BUTT they are not easy to replicate. Their training cycle is probably longer than the Q course for 18D's.

Drones are not autonomous, they need handlers. In the case of the armed ones, use to attack tanks, the operator is not in a Lazy-Boy, air-conditioned trailer 200 miles away.

They also use radio freqs to send and receive video and flight controls.

A WIFI freq jammer should be simple enough to develop. If they focus on the freq's needed to transmit video, the drone is useless?? I suspect the current rage for WIFI micro-mini cameras may be key to the technology being used??

The freq use by the drone controller is the other leg to jam, but if you get the video first???

Hit the 5 GHz and 2.4 GHz frequencies used for WiFi?? There are a bunch of different freqs, but I suspect 99% are using the current technology smart phones, so they don't get to choose what freq is used??



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels

examples

https://www.ebay.com/itm/new-Super-S...oAAOSwaZdZvQDB

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-1080P-....c100506.m3226

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-Sp...oAAOSwujBZ3Bw-

Musings from an FOG..
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:38   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
700 million seems a bit much,, but that's the way the 5 sided outhouse rolls..

The birds on the other hand present good value for the punch,, BUTT they are not easy to replicate. Their training cycle is probably longer than the Q course for 18D's.

Drones are not autonomous, they need handlers. In the case of the armed ones, use to attack tanks, the operator is not in a Lazy-Boy, air-conditioned trailer 200 miles away.

They also use radio freqs to send and receive video and flight controls.

A WIFI freq jammer should be simple enough to develop. If they focus on the freq's needed to transmit video, the drone is useless?? I suspect the current rage for WIFI micro-mini cameras may be key to the technology being used??

The freq use by the drone controller is the other leg to jam, but if you get the video first???

Hit the 5 GHz and 2.4 GHz frequencies used for WiFi?? There are a bunch of different freqs, but I suspect 99% are using the current technology smart phones, so they don't get to choose what freq is used??

Musings from an FOG..
Don't hold your breath on that one, as very soon I'm sure they will be. The only thing that's going to stop them for sure is jammers. (Eagles are very cool, but the next step will be drones that can out fly an eagle.) Once we start using jammers the drones will be hardened and so on and so forth.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:23   #4
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To me drones feel a bit like it must have been for the Israelis in 1973 against wire guided Saggers.

Man portable drones are relatively new.

I see a lot more multi mode autonomy.

Manually controlled, freq is jammed, drone switches to autonomous mode and returns to preprogrammed RV.

I reckon counter drone is going to be multi layered approach.

Vehicle based for higher mobile echelon Defense, telescopic pole based on FOBs.

New jammers as previously stated, and new rifle, shotgun, and grenade launcher rounds for close proximity drone swarm attacks.

The best defence I believe may be taking good guy COTS drones that are multi-mode, capable of being an anti-drone drone to intercept.

Not a particularly difficult thing to do as long as the basic sensors and matched with some well written software code.

The the bad guy drones will be flying counter routes and so on and so on.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:29   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
700 million seems a bit much,, but that's the way the 5 sided outhouse rolls..

The birds on the other hand present good value for the punch,, BUTT they are not easy to replicate. Their training cycle is probably longer than the Q course for 18D's.

Drones are not autonomous, they need handlers. In the case of the armed ones, use to attack tanks, the operator is not in a Lazy-Boy, air-conditioned trailer 200 miles away.

They also use radio freqs to send and receive video and flight controls.
Then its time for outsourcing
http://relay.nationalgeographic.com/...ctor-interview

....I doubt the price tag for nomads living in sparse land is even a million.
And the chicks-rule crowd will be pleased too. Win-win-win


The jammer is not solving the problem over there . The details are not for public release just yet
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"Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera " Jehanne, la Pucelle

Der, der Geld verliert, verliert einiges;
Der, der einen Freund verliert, verliert viel mehr;
Der, der das Vertrauen verliert, verliert alles.

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Old 10-18-2017, 15:43   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
Screw the drone the operator with a remote will leave an electronic footprint that is where my kill zone would be.
Even drone operators have to go home at night, or step outside for a smoke or to relieve themselves.

Some SHTF book I read had the "patriots" targeting the drone operators base.
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Old 12-28-2017, 13:26   #7
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A bit older article but interesting nonetheless. The X8 flying wing drone linked in the article looks pretty cool.

I Could Kill You with a Consumer Drone
BY BRETT VELICOVICH
JUNE 27, 2017

Right now, Im holding a drone that can fly thousands of feet in air in less than 30 seconds, getting it to an altitude where no one could see it. My drone could be up in the air, ready to strike a target before you even had time to blink.

A range extender Ive added to the antenna allows me to control it up to seven miles away. Or I can click a button to activate a tracking device, ordering my drone to follow a vehicle or person, filming every movement in 4K high-definition video. If it ever loses its radio link to the controller, it can automatically return to its launch location. Except this drone is not meant to come back. It is not meant to take nice photos of my vacation. It is meant to strike. A small mechanism allows it to carry and drop a 2.5-pound payload potentially grenades, bombs, even poison.

Think thats pretty high tech? Guess what you can buy it at your local Apple store or Walmart.

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017...seone_today_nl
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Old 12-28-2017, 15:31   #8
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I've been waiting for the first "civilian" kill using a drone. I'm betting 2018 will be the year drone deaths start. I find it amusing folks are using them to deliver guns and drugs to prisoners in prison.......
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Old 12-28-2017, 15:42   #9
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A smart government would infiltrate the various manufacturers.
They would engineer weaknesses of their own choosing into the drones.

Then, find a way to subsidize specific manufacturers of distributors to ensure market success.
Heavy regulation for the industry in general plus tax breaks/waivers for the ones you want to succeed might work.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:18   #10
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I play around with this stuff as a hobbyist.
The Dji quad copter (pictured at the beginning of frostfire's link) is very popular. It ranges in price from ~500 to 1800 and up (depending on equipment).

Here are some average specs for these quads from DJI:
  • Max ascent 5 m/s
  • Max decent 3 m/s
  • Max Speed 16 m/s
  • Operating Frequency 2.400 - 2.483 GHz;5.725 - 5.825 GHz
  • Max Transmission Distance FCC Compliant: 2.5 mi (4 km)
  • CE Compliant: 0.3 mi (500m) (Unobstructed, free of interference)
  • Max Service Ceiling Above Sea Level 6000 m
  • Max Hovering Time Approx.25 minutes

On-board GPS + flight controller make these things super stable. A friend of mine recently purchased an Inspire model. With absolutely 0 previous experience, he took it off, flew it around the neighborhood and returned it home. (For folks who have ever messed around with RC planes/helicopters/quads, you know it takes a LOT of practice to become proficient in flying this stuff). The same dude could program a path for it to fly into the quad, launch it, go back inside drink a beer and watch the quad do its thing on the monitor.

Notice in the specs I posted that the FCC is involved with how far away from yourself you can fly these things. The FCC also has stipulated that you must not fly one within a certain distance of an airport or military installation (unless you apply for a permit). The same friend I mentioned was outside of the FCC "drone airspace" but DJI ships their quads with a large safety factor. My friend had to contact DJI multiple times, confirm his actual address multiple times and finally they sent him modified firmware updates that unlocked his quad so he could fly it in his yard.

There are existing laws (*snicker* laws) that regulate where and how these things are used.

Are they a danger? Sure, with some caveats.
  • Weight vs flight time. They run on batteries, it takes more power to lift and carry more weight, thus more weight = less range/flight time.
  • DJI "drones" are closed systems. You would have to be pretty handy to get in its guts and alter it without "bricking" it.
  • If the quad looses contact with its controller, it automatically returns to home, thus jamming its useable frequency range would effectively remove it as a threat.
  • It is susceptible to weather. The flight controller will stabilize it against some wind, not strong wind.

Now this only covers DJI's quads. There are others, and you can surely build your own. In building your own, you could remove the safety features built into the DJI quads, and have yourself a single purpose, short range, one-way flying bomb, chemical disbursement tool.

Now if larger payloads and longer distances are a greater threat, I would be more concerned with flying wing type planes like the X8 the author mentioned. It's a big plane (as far as RC stuff goes) and has a very efficient wing surface. It can also carry a bigger payload (pounds vs ounces) much farther distances than a quad could under any conditions. They are more stable in weather. They are easier to build and IMO much easier to fly. One could absolutely add the same type of GPS paired flight control to it and program a route sequence into it making it fairly autonomous once launched and at altitude.

I intend only to offer some general highlights to the information offered in frostfire's link and to pose a question as I am ignorant to the viability of these things being threats: in a domestic location, how much danger could a few ounces or a couple of pounds of explosives strapped to a fairly light air-frame do if detonated in open air?


ETA: re Grateful Citizen - how do we know they haven't? I recall the shock just a few years ago when we found out the gubment was monitoring our smart phones.
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Old 12-30-2017, 15:59   #11
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This piqued my interest but apparently could not make funding for go live.

Test a Personal Drone Detection System for $500
https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2459756,00.asp

Give it to DARPA or whatever but I would really like to see it in production and use.

I would think something like this would give you a chance to pull out your shotgun.
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Old 12-31-2017, 17:36   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
Drones are not autonomous, they need handlers. In the case of the armed ones, use to attack tanks, the operator is not in a Lazy-Boy, air-conditioned trailer 200 miles away.

They also use radio freqs to send and receive video and flight controls.
A WIFI freq jammer should be simple enough to develop. If they focus on the freq's needed to transmit video, the drone is useless?? I suspect the current rage for WIFI micro-mini cameras may be key to the technology being used??
The freq use by the drone controller is the other leg to jam, but if you get the video first???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant View Post
Don't hold your breath on that one, as very soon I'm sure they will be. The only thing that's going to stop them for sure is jammers. (Eagles are very cool, but the next step will be drones that can out fly an eagle.) Once we start using jammers the drones will be hardened and so on and so forth.
Looks like the future in now. If this is a TED talk, bet DARPA delivered on these 3-5 years ago.

Based on the attached TED talk, it looks like they will be autonomous, w/ artificial intelligence, so there is nothing to jam, capture, or interrupt. Mini-killers with small amounts of explosive, enough to kill a target.....new way of war anyone ??

SnT



https://www.*******.com/watch?v=TlO2gcs1YvM
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poor man's cruise missile, unmanned kamikaze
Old 01-12-2018, 06:59   #13
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poor man's cruise missile, unmanned kamikaze

https://www.defensenews.com/global/m...om-syria-raid/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...red-Syria.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.11434ce4bd13

Looks like what I used to build (and crash) during highschool aeromodeling project. Minus the munitions and the "brain."

Imagine hundreds of these swarming towards a docked navy ship (or embassy or FOB). Makes USS Cole attack in Yemen look like child's play.
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"we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Rom. 5:3-4

"So we can suffer, and in suffering we know who we are" David Goggins

"Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera " Jehanne, la Pucelle

Der, der Geld verliert, verliert einiges;
Der, der einen Freund verliert, verliert viel mehr;
Der, der das Vertrauen verliert, verliert alles.

INDNJC

Last edited by frostfire; 01-12-2018 at 07:02.
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More from Bellingcat
Old 01-12-2018, 13:54   #14
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More from Bellingcat

I love Bellingtcat

"The drones have been primitive what is easy understandable for a single use garment. However the automatic navigation is really advanced, precise. It is, lets express like that, still surprising which degree of military technology is available for allegedly isolated rural figthers in a remote province without foreign assistance?"
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:17   #15
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It's all fun and games until the other guy has the same capabilities...........

Interesting times we live in. I think I'll invest in some drone "nets".


https://www.amazon.com/Anti-Bird-Net.../dp/B00CDL3LXC
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