Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > Kit Tips > Special Forces Fieldcraft

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-2017, 20:30   #31
PSM
Area Commander
 
PSM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 5,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer View Post
I think I may be in a unique situation, because I can go 100 miles and still be in a pretty urban environment from where I live. Walking around with a ruck or a long gun would make me stand out like a sore thumb.

I escaped from being pushed up against the beach. You might be wise to think "water".

Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"

"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass

"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager

"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
PSM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 22:11   #32
Penn
Area Commander
 
Penn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,806
miclo18d
Quote:
I personally am of the notion of never bring a knife to a gunfight and never bring a pistol to a rifle fight. I would still want an AR variant. I'm still a 5.56 fan. My current is a hand built 16" mid length. Good all around. I would lighten my basic load to probably 4 mags.
Understanding that basic tenet, I'd add the AR and 6/30 rnd mags
1# 4oz per mag = 7.4 0z
7.5 # M4

total 14.9+15.1= 29.10 load

I would not lessen the load as I think the movement is a multi day event to complete.

Taking into consideration a grp has organized an established an RP, would imply several routes have also been considered, but I also add a 1:25 map of the AO.
Penn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 16:36   #33
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,445
I tend to agree that with 2 and 4 legged threats out there, bring the rifle and hope you do not have to use it.

If you got to the RP and it had been overrun, having nothing but a .22LR pistol might limit your options considerably.

RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances. Maybe the long-term plan is to eventually move out of that area. In the meanwhile, I would suggest that if you can get an SBR, the new AR Personal Defense Weapons in 5.56 with the M-3 type collapsible stock and a very short barrel is very handy and concealable. Might even fit in a briefcase. Unfortunately, a suppressor is not available at your current location, and I would definitely want one for this journey. Definitely, you need a brick of .22 CB Longs and a pump or lever action to run them through. Next time you are near Bragg, you will have to come over for a range day and check a few cans out. Sadly, I would feel that the odds would be very long indeed if things went to crap, ala Rodney King trial, and there were rioters in the street and roadblocks every few intersections and you had to move through it. To top it all off, you live in an area with very limited surface water to replenish with. Were I you, I would have the best intel net I could find, and would pack for an extended camping trip well before they got to your neighborhood. There are so many man-made and natural disaster possibilities in your area requiring evacuation that I would probably keep a bunch of storage boxes stacked near the garage door with my necessities to be ready to go on very short notice. BTW, burners are easy, call me if you need details.

Agreed on the Mk 262, SOST Mk 316, or TAP 5.56 ammo several have recommended.

IMHO, takedowns are generally to slow to deploy and add too much weight for the purpose of this scenario.

I think that outside of shelter and water purification (I do not like the straws, they are prone to clog very quickly in dirty water and do not permit you to upload clean water to your storage devices. The Sawyer is a much better option, light, and its extremely inexpensive, IMHO. The Katadyns are the heat, but tend to be heavy and bulky. The primary load is going to be food.

A very fit long distance rucker with a minimalist load, good flat routes, running trails (and avoiding large water obstacles and severe elevation changes) while maintaining some security could cross 100 miles in 3-4 days. The out of shape guy with too much weight and a bad route could take a couple of weeks and still maybe never get there. I think a reasonable compromise for an average fit male to move 100 miles on varied terrain and no major water obstacles would be a week to ten days and the food load should support that.

Jerky and a couple of protein bars isn't going to get you there. In this situation, hunting is jeopardizing your security, and the time it takes to trap or snare is probably not worth the food you might gather. Fishing might be an option, if you knew where and what to fish with, and had a secluded site. I would guess that you might want to stock 20-30 freeze dried and high energy meals and additional snacks for the trip, averaging 3,000 calories per day or more. This would probably necessitate a stove and fuel as well, due to the requirement for boiling water and the security issue of making a campfire.

Will add to this later.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2017
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 17:15   #34
Roguish Lawyer
Consigliere
 
Roguish Lawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 8,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances. Maybe the long-term plan is to eventually move out of that area. In the meanwhile, I would suggest that if you can get an SBR, the new AR Personal Defense Weapons in 5.56 with the M-3 type collapsible stock and a very short barrel is very handy and concealable. Might even fit in a briefcase. Unfortunately, a suppressor is not available at your current location, and I would definitely want one for this journey. Definitely, you need a brick of .22 CB Longs and a pump or lever action to run them through. Next time you are near Bragg, you will have to come over for a range day and check a few cans out. Sadly, I would feel that the odds would be very long indeed if things went to crap, ala Rodney King trial, and there were rioters in the street and roadblocks every few intersections and you had to move through it. To top it all off, you live in an area with very limited surface water to replenish with. Were I you, I would have the best intel net I could find, and would pack for an extended camping trip well before they got to your neighborhood. There are so many man-made and natural disaster possibilities in your area requiring evacuation that I would probably keep a bunch of storage boxes stacked near the garage door with my necessities to be ready to go on very short notice. BTW, burners are easy, call me if you need details.
I did not read this scenario as indicating the reason for bugging out was civil unrest. More that someone was coming for me. In the civil unrest scenario, I have a completely different plan, with Plan A being to shelter in place and Plan B involving a boat.

You know I can't come to Bragg without seeing you, and range time would be awesome.
Roguish Lawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 17:18   #35
Sdiver
Area Commander
 
Sdiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: The OTHER Mile High city ... with Mtns on the East side
Posts: 5,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer View Post
I did not read this scenario as indicating the reason for bugging out was civil unrest. More that someone was coming for me. In the civil unrest scenario, I have a completely different plan, with Plan A being to shelter in place and Plan B involving a boat.

You know I can't come to Bragg without seeing you, and range time would be awesome.
Hummmmm .... I didn't know Ft. Bragg was on the coast?

Well I guess it's true what they say, 'You Learn something new everyday.'
__________________
Non Sibi Sed Suis
_____________________________________________
It's Good To Be Da King !!!! Just ask NDD !!!!
Sdiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 17:21   #36
miclo18d
Quiet Professional
 
miclo18d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post

RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances.
Taking a hint from Fear the Walking Dead. RL may want to consider The water as his bug out plan. This requires a completely different set of skills and would probably require stealing any boat that has the right capabilities, but this would negate having to negotiate the urban nightmare as well as reducing probable contact significantly.

Even a small Kayak or a Hobie sailboat for around $2000 could get the job done and get you away from the city to get you to less urban environments.

Katadyn filters are probably the gold standard, but for MUCH less money and weight, the former Sweetwater Guardian (now owned by MSR) is a very good product!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0074.jpg (56.3 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0077.JPG (114.7 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0078.JPG (75.7 KB, 13 views)
__________________
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper
miclo18d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 17:34   #37
tonyz
Area Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,172
Slight thread drift - never used one but Katadyn and salt water escape piqued my interest...for those with deep pockets...KATADYN SURVIVOR 35...stashed on a boat might be useful.

The most widely-used emergency desalinator. Produces up to 4.5 litres per hour. Produces enough water for multiple person liferafts. Widely used by US and international military forces, voyagers, sea kayakers, and other adventurers.

https://www.katadyn.com/us/us/140-80...yn-survivor-35
__________________
The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.

Marcus Tullius Cicero
tonyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 19:36   #38
Oldrotorhead
Guerrilla Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 830
An alternative to breaking down the rifle might be useful and bringing the rifle on line s pretty fast.
A Law Tactical folder can help make an AR easier to hide and a 14.5" barrel helps too.

https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_foldi..._m_p/99312.htm
__________________
Oldrotorhead
Oldrotorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 20:32   #39
PSM
Area Commander
 
PSM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 5,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
but I would use an old shopping cart as cover, to carry my rifle in and hidden and keep the load off my back.
I was thinking about that last night, as well. For RL, in LA there are lots of movie prop-shops where he might be able to buy one. If not, perhaps a regular supermarket or large independent like Beachwood market under the Hollywood sign. Why buy you ask. To trick it out of course. Put softer, quieter, wheels and grease up the bearings. Then again, someone might become suspicious if at least one of the wheels didn't freeze or wiggle violently.

Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"

"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass

"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager

"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
PSM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 20:53   #40
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,445
A BoB discussion.

I believe that a well-provisioned BoB should consist of modules, rather than a random collection of items stuffed into a large ruck.

A medium-sized ruck (unless under extreme cold weather threat) should hold the 40 pounds or less this journey requires. I would go larger only if the food cubed out the ruck.

A good, sturdy, well-broken in pair of boots and a good pair of socks should be in the ruck unless you wear those items daily. While moving, you should stop to change socks regularly and bring several pairs packed in waterproof bags, along with underclothes and clothes appropriate for the season.

A waterproof fire starter module with at least two or three methods of starting a fire is critical. Lighters, strikers, waterproof matches, fresnel lenses, tinder, and miscellaneous fire starters go in here.

Water purification is very important. Plan on bringing a water purification device, like a Sawyer, some water purification tablets or a MIOX, and several water containers.

Shelter is a necessity in most climates, whether it is for a wet, cold environment, or for a hot, humid, insect-ridden climate. Pack the appropriate gear in this module, whether it is a poncho and liner, a bivvy bag, or a lightweight tent and a sleeping bag. I find a small Thermarest pad to be a worthy addition in all environments.

You would need a navigation module of a map, a compass, a protractor, and a pencil, and if the constellation is still up, a GPS and a method to charge it. Add a pair of mini-binos, unless you have a magnifying optic.

A related module is the signal module with, for example, a small signal mirror, a whistle, a chemlight, and a signal scarf. This kit would be very small for this scenario as you likely have no need to signal anyone, until you are at the end of your journey.

Another required item is first aid module with a small trauma kit, a meds kit, and an owie kit capable of sustaining minor injuries over your 100 mile journey. This would be a good place for a spare pair of glasses.

A tool and repair module can be small but very useful with a Leatherman, SAK, fixed blade knife, thread and needles, a limited amount of Gorilla tape, para cord, elastic cord, snare wire, electric wire, (a commercial tent/clothing repair kit might be a useful addition), zip ties, Spectra or Kevlar line, safety pins, a hacksaw blade, some glue, spare batteries, etc. A folding saw is fairly convenient and may be a good return on the weight and bulk. A small, folding solar panel would be a great way to recharge batteries or an external power pack. One must have item is a good headlamp with spare batteries, and I prefer to add a small handheld LED flashlight. I would consider a small sharpening stone, but the duration and movement might make it excessive if you start with a sharp knife.

One comfort item, but one I would work to try and make fit would be a hygiene module with wipes, soap, toothbrush and toothpaste, floss, pack towel, foot powder, etc. in very small quantities. Add seasonal items like chapstick, insect repellent, and / or sun screen.

The cooking module would contain food, snacks, a titanium pot set, utensils, a small stove, fuel, beverages, seasoning, a tiny bottle of a cooking oil of your choice, ziplocs, tinfoil, a very small container of liquid soap, a piece of a scrubbie, etc. A couple of contractor plastic bags can assist with shelter construction or a plethora of applications. Smaller bags might be handy as well.

If you anticipate moving slowly and packing lightly in an area with plentiful fish, a fishing kit may make sense for you.

A very small weapons maintenance kit like a stripped down Otis with a couple of patches and a tiny bottle of weapons oil might be worthwhile. I would avoid anything larger than that. Again, start with a clean, well-oiled weapon. Spare mags not worn on the gear and extra ammo go in this module.

Some of this gear might migrate its way to your second or first line gear (like the tools or knives).

I would add that I have deliberately left out a cell phone. If you are trying not to be found and still insist on taking one, remove the battery or put it into an RF bag, or both.

Build your BoB, go to the woods, and test it to see what you have forgotten or don't really have a need for. At least a couple of times per year, you should go through your BoB and swap the seasonal clothes and items with expiration dates out.

Hope this helps, or spurs additional discussion. What have I left out?

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2017
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 21:39   #41
TWITCHY
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Amarillo, Texas
Posts: 98
TR, you referred to first line and second line gear in your post and I also saw this mentioned in a forum discussion about "battle belts". I was not in the military so I do not know what first and second line gear refer to, exactly. I searched on these forums for reference, but I didn't find anything about it. Could you direct me to a resource that describes first and second line gear?

Also, a friend of mine has become infatuated with battle belts. He was not in the military, either. Are battle belts something that are actually used by soldiers or is it a new tacticool piece of gear. They look like they would be useful in the situation you have presented. I would assume that a battle belt or any other tactical looking gear would not be suited to the urban environment (if one intends to blend in); however, I could see a battle belt being useful in the country, hills, or mountains during the 100 mile trek.

I really appreciate the expert opinions in this thread and I am making a shopping list based on everyone's input. Thanks.
TWITCHY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 09:16   #42
TJ11B
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: TX
Posts: 75
Urban Area E&E

Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
__________________
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends", John 15:1.
“He should have armed himself if he’s gonna decorate his saloon with my friend”, Clint Eastwood, The Unforgiven.
TJ11B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 14:35   #43
bblhead672
Area Commander
 
bblhead672's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 1,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ11B View Post
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
Funny you should mention that...I've been thinking along the same thoughts. Mark the corners with "street sign" names for areas that you know well (but not the neighborhood you're actually in!) but the meaning would be lost on anyone else.
bblhead672 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 22:33   #44
Penn
Area Commander
 
Penn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,806
TJ 11B
Quote:
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo

Last edited by Penn; 04-21-2017 at 22:35.
Penn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 09:17   #45
doctom54
Guerrilla
 
doctom54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northwest AR
Posts: 339
DPMS Oracle 5.56 with 6 30 rd mags plus one 20 rd in the rifle
ACOG TA31 with BAC
Streamlight TLR with white light and IR laser.

AN/PVS 14 (still need one or two more for others in the group)

Perhaps some 550 cord to rig a sling when I need one. Where I live a sling gets caught a lot moving thru thick stuff.

Ruger 22/45 Packlite barrel with suppressor 1 spare magazine plus one in the pistol and 100 rounds of CCI MiniMag.
I have NOT found a holster I like for it. Any thoughts?


This scenario is unlikely for me since I have my wife here and lots of step children, son-in-law and multiple grandkids nearby. Still If I have to move with them it would be about 50 miles thru the mountains to a safe location (all ready prepped). My basic load stays the same. The adults all get an AR and the grandkids all get a .22 rifle.
__________________
"For exercise I recommend vigorous walking... and carrying a gun. The gun’s weight will increase the level of exercise and the possession of a gun on a walk produces real confidence."
Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by doctom54; 04-22-2017 at 09:26.
doctom54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:37.



Copyright 2004-2019 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies