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Old 03-20-2012, 06:35   #1
Odin21
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Combat medic vest pouch

I am looking into what vest pouch I want to get for my next deployment so I did a google image search of "combat medic vest" and this picture came up. Does anyone know what pouch that is? I have seen a few people mention vest mounted medic pouches but is there a thread on here dedicated to them that I missed? I have seen one on the Tac Med leg rig that you can mount on your vest, but that is about it. I really like the idea of having stuff on my vest so that I can work without having to go straight to my aidbag if I am treating someone without an IFAK like a COB or ANP. I have seen a lot of people mention the TT FRB as the way to go. Is there an advantage of a belt system over a dedicated pouch or two on your vest? If someone with more experience has any reviews they would like to share of what they carried and worked I would appreciate it. Last time I used the issued canteen pouch. It worked, but there has to be a better method. Any reviews/thoughts on getting a dedicated medic vest, like the TT medic vest or the BDS medic vest or should that be another thread in and of itself? Thank you for your time and assistance.
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Old 03-20-2012, 13:12   #2
lssah2025
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I have one of my pouches from CTOMS. You might like what they have.

I use a frontline with shingle (3 M4 mags).

http://www.ctoms.ca/t/equipment/ctoms-signature-series

[url]http://www.ctoms.ca/home[/url

I also have used the BDS medical harness/vest in the past and it worked out pretty well for me, problem for me it was not modular, so you can not tweek it for your needs, but overall it worked well with a plate carrier.
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Old 03-20-2012, 17:15   #3
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Not a medic, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express before.

IMHO, you want ammo, comms, and a blow-out kit on your vest. You are a better asset to your unit with your ammo rapidly accessible from the prime real estate on your vest than aid gear. You could stick a half dozen TQs in empty space, if you really needed them. Or just stash them in your blow-out kit.

The aid bag for treating others is probably too big to put on the front/sides, and it will certainly take longer to access and find what you are after than a dedicated aid bag or ruck.

By the way, there are several threads here covering medical bags and med loads you should peruse. First search, then start new threads.

Best of luck.

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Old 03-21-2012, 06:06   #4
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Like TR ... I'm not a medic. You'll have enough chiming in so enough.

On our team we use TT tear away panels for our IFAKs. But with IEDs I would lean more to a vacum package style IFAK to be places in your CamelBak pouch. I know some ODAs & other are doing this and placing the package behind their armor plate for blast protection. Best style I've seem is one made with a parachute material with a red pull handle/ lanyard. But this is for individual med kits. Not aid bags


As 4 eyes a medical bag 4 Medic. I say you need your Aid Bag. With MASSCALs and treating people and starting IVs. You can't carry enough supplies on your vest IMHO.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:42   #5
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To clarify, I am not in any way looking to replace my aid bag and I understand that I cannot carry enough medical supplies on my vest in addition to ammo, comms, etc. I did not mean to give that impression. I was looking more for a single pouch or two that I can carry a small amount of trauma gear in on my vest that I have immediate access to so that I can leave my larger aid bag in the truck depending on what operations we are doing. As far as searching, I have tried looking up "combat medic vest" "combat medic pouch" and other variations thereof. Most of the posts that I have read in "The Aid Bag" section deal with true aidbags and then there is the review of the TT FRB. The one most similar to what I was looking for was a review of the TacMed drop leg pouch and it mentioned that it could be mounted to the vest. I have seen medics mention a pouch on their vest, but I do not recall them saying what it was or giving any sort of review on it. There are also a few reviews of IFAK type pouches, but I have not seen anything that I remember on vest pouches for medics, although I have wondered from time to time if just loading up on IFAK type pouches is a viable option. There is actually a vest from SO Tech called the MACH that has an NSN and is supposedly issued to SF medics that appears to just be a chest rig with two SO Tech IFAKs and 2 utility pouches mounted to it. Back on topic- if I completely missed the thread on medic pouches and/or vests I apologize sincerely and if someone could point me to it I would appreciate it and I will get out of your hair.

The reason that I have started looking at vests as an augmentation to the aid bag was the "packing list" in the back of the "Ranger Medic handbook" we were all issued. Here is the quote that got me on this kick- any comments would be welcome because right now I do not even know if this is a viable question. "The RMED/RLCS packing list are items that the medic carries on his body without opening an aid-bag or rucksack. All items are carried in a manner that provides ease of access. The intent of this packing list is to provide all immediate care for a trauma casualty without opening external bags or equipment."

The packing list consists of 1 cric kit, 1 NPA with lube, 1 14ga, 2 hyfins, 2 ACS, 2 CATs, 2 Israeli Dressings (6in), 2 Chitosan, 1 Chitoflex, 4 vacuum sealed kerlix, 2 saline lock kits, 1 sharps shuttle, 1 pulse ox, 1 headlamp, 1 exam light, 3 pairs of gloves, and a set of shears on a leash. I have an active shooter chest rig set up still from when I supported my college PD and I managed to get most of that in a SAW pouch with the TQs rubber banded to the front of my mag pouches. I was not nearly carrying as much "shooter stuff" on my chest rig as I do for the military, but I hope that even if something did go bad on campus I would not need 210 plus rounds.

For my military kit, the IBA that I have set up for training right now has 3 2mag pouches that go from in front of my left elbow across the middle of the vest. That way I can carry AR mags or shotgun cards, depending on what the unit decides to issue me. Up on my chest I have a double pistol pouch, a flashlight pouch, a TQ rubber banded, and a seat belt cutter. Moving to the right side I have a SAW pouch for holding my medical stuff now but there is some real estate on either side of it. My IFAK is behind my right elbow but mounted far enough forward that I can still sit in a truck seat. I know that some people prefer to have their IFAK on their front, but our unit SOP last time was strong side in the kidney area and I just kinda got used to it there. Having it back there also gives me a gap in my vest that allows me to access my drop leg Safariland. If someone wants pictures I will see what I can do. The whole reason that I am looking at a "vest medic pouch" is to replace the SAW pouch and better utilize my real estate. I know that I have to hit the gym more, but I am a big guy. I can put a lot of stuff on a LG or XL IOTV.

In short, I am trying to address The Reapers valid concerns about me needing to address fire superiority before medicine, which I completely agree. "The best battlefield medicine is fire superiority", which is why I am fighting to get issued a long arm in addition to just a side arm. A shotgun is not my first choice, but it is better than just an M9. Is there anything that you guys can think of that I am missing or that I could do better as far as the vest? It looks like I will not be issued a radio, but if I am I was thinking of putting it on my left side about where my IFAK is on the right.

As an aside, to anyone else who is wondering, evidently the medic pouch in the photo is a North American NAR-4 pouch.

Thank you guys for your help.

Last edited by Odin21; 03-21-2012 at 11:46.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:58   #6
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CTOMS pouch

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Originally Posted by lssah2025 View Post
I have one of my pouches from CTOMS. You might like what they have.

I use a frontline with shingle (3 M4 mags).

http://www.ctoms.ca/t/equipment/ctoms-signature-series

[url]http://www.ctoms.ca/home[/url

I also have used the BDS medical harness/vest in the past and it worked out pretty well for me, problem for me it was not modular, so you can not tweek it for your needs, but overall it worked well with a plate carrier.
This is awesome, thanks. What all can you get in it? Do you have any issues getting into the pouch with mags in front of it? I have seen this pouch online that is a similar idea but has the mags mounted behind it. I am torn between getting something like this Marz one or the CTOMS like you have, but I am hesitant about getting something that integrates my ammo and my medical stuff because I am still not sure if I am getting a shotgun or a M4. It looks more and more like a shotgun, but I can still use the shotgun cards in an M4 pouch. The issue I could see having is the elastic band over the top of what was designed to hold AR mags, not shotgun cards. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation and I would love to hear more about what all you are able to carry in it. Do you carry one or two?
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Old 03-21-2012, 13:05   #7
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I do not like the open pouch, it is hard to access if you are prone. The biggest thing is your mision profile and what assests you need to carry to support your mission. I am on an aircraft and the mission that I do my pouch works for me, I have 8 mags on the ready wall right in front of me to use. The 3 mags are for personal use if I have to egress from the helo and move to a patient. I carry a small med bag on the aircraft that I can grab and use if necessary. It has my narcs, paralytics, SaveVent, IV solutions, ET kit, and King LTD and a micro BVM, 1 sharps shuttle, 1 pulse ox, 1 headlamp, gloves, 3 TK's outside along with some other TCCC supplies. Like MtnGoat and The Reaper stated the best medicine is superior firepower and to do that you need mags at the ready. I would only carry extra TCCC on my kit to augment my med bag.

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Old 03-21-2012, 13:45   #8
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Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I think that this may be what I am looking for, if not then definitely something similar. I just want to have enough stuff on me that if we are working with vehicles, maybe stopping by ANP checkpoints, taking a quick tour of a police building, etc I can get out of the truck and be able to work with what I have on me and what is the the PT's IFAK at least for a short term without having to carry the aidbag in everywhere. We are MPs. We don't plan on ever being more than 50m or so away from our trucks. I have tried using a NARP medic leg rig in training but I really do not like having a leg rig that sticks out 6-8 inches. It sounds like I can get all the stuff that the Army recommends into a pouch like the one you carry and that way I don't have to worry at all about having a medic leg rig in addition to a pistol leg rig. Again, I know that I need to run more but with a Safariland on one side and a NARP medic rig on the other it made moving through doorways awkward, much less trying to get in and out of an ASV...

In keeping with what some of the others have said on here about DA missions, where the medics just took what was on their vests and a TT FRB or maybe an M9 aidbag, and left the big one in the truck- what do you guys think about "normal Army" doing the same type thing? If we do stop for a KLE, check point inspection, etc. and the platoon sgt wants me with him, should I try to load up for bear with all of my stuff, or would you feel comfortable walking around with a TT FRB and a decent vest pouch? If the general consensus is that I should just try to stick with the big aidbag then I guess I will hit the gym more and ignore the medic vest question.

In regards to the fire superiority- I have never been in any sort of infantry unit, but I gather that no one only carries the 210 rounds. As a medic, if I have the extra space on my vest for that SAW pouch, CTOMS pouch, etc should I just go with more ammo or should I go with more TCCC stuff and stick with 210 rounds or a rough equivalent in 12ga? I understand that the answer is METT-TC dictates, but at the risk of asking a dumb question, what are some general guidelines on deciding how to balance medical vs firepower? If someone would like to PM their answer I understand that too. If it is time for me to quit asking questions and go back to reading I understand that as well, please just let me know.

Thank you all again for your time, guidance, and patience. I am trying not to ask dumb questions or waste anyone's time, I just want to learn to think like you do so that I can come up with the answers for myself. My fear is that I will come up with the answers AFTER I need them. What is the old saying- experience is something that you get right after you need it?
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Old 03-21-2012, 15:07   #9
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Like MtnGoat and The Reaper stated the best medicine is superior firepower and to do that you need mags at the ready. I would only carry extra TCCC on my kit to augment my med bag.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. To many medics want all their equipment on their body armor. What you carry on you is to augment and support your primary aid bag. If anyone out there is trying to replace the aid bag with a pouch on their kit STOP and think back to TCCC and the Care Under Fire if you are able to approach a PT in this phase you use their IFAK before you go into you kit for anything. I personally carry an IFAK that is beefed up to allow me to do some TX while in a MCI or traige situation also I keep 4-6 CATs on my armor and 1 on the Stock of my rifle for fast access in care under fire (one thing to remember is that all TQs that are exposed to the sun and elements need to me replaced every few weeks due to UV damage that makes them un-useable). Its purpose is to treat only immediate life threats then move on to your next patient. Then when the situation is secure you are able to get into your aid bag and treat more PTs more definitely.

The open clam shell type pouch is what I personally prefer because you can see all of you equipment when you open it. I also like the rip off type so that if I am prone or need to place it further on my side or back for a mission I am able to pull it off and get access to it.

When I am in a Helo or truck or any type I have my aid bags* set up so that I have quick access to everything I could need out of your kit.
As a PJ I would fly with 3 bags, I had my primary ruck for use in MCI or long ground missions, and M-9 bag for "Down the Hoist" or DA type missions and a trauma panel hung on the bag wall or OX tank in a HH-60. Between the bags that I kept in the A/C I would never need to get in to my medic pouch while not on the ground. and when I used stuff out of it is was always able to restock it from another source while still on a mission. For convoy work the teams we did the same thing with 3 bags except the bags would be put in to different vehicles so that if one was taken out of commission the other vehicles would still have needed medical equipment.

I am not saying that this is the only way of doing things but its a way that worked well for me as a PJ.

Ammo, and Comms were never an issue, Medical issues always take a back seat to the fire fight that is happening at a given time. I also carried 4 mags on my chest rig and 2 more on first line belt.
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Old 03-21-2012, 18:18   #10
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I would challenge you to put together your chest rig with the med gear you think you need, and your aid bag.

Then make a list of the common contents.

Jock up and have someone call off several items that you have to locate and take out of your chest gear. Run a stop watch on your time.

Then repeat the test for the same items in your aid bag/med ruck.

I suspect that the aid bag is a lot faster.

Your patients should appreciate this test.

TR
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Old 03-21-2012, 20:15   #11
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Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
I would challenge you to put together your chest rig with the med gear you think you need, and your aid bag.

Then make a list of the common contents.

Jock up and have someone call off several items that you have to locate and take out of your chest gear. Run a stop watch on your time.

Then repeat the test for the same items in your aid bag/med ruck.

I suspect that the aid bag is a lot faster.

Your patients should appreciate this test.

TR
This is an awesome idea. I have to do some papers for school over the next few nights, but hopefully this weekend I will be able to try this and I will see about posting my results. I have managed to "tactically acquire" several different aidbags and I may even try it with different ones. One that I would like to see is the difference in an aidbag and a belt bag, like the TT FRB.

The thing that I could see skewing my times is that I am thinking it maybe faster for me to reach into my SAW pouch than it is to get my aidbag off. If my aidbag was open on the ground already by the patient I think that I would have much more and much better treatment options than what I can fit in a small vest pouch. In a side by side comparison of an open aidbag and a small med pouch I think that you would be right. I am wondering about the time difference in just taking it off and unzipping it though. Additionally, with what we are talking about there are many things that I can only treat out of my aidbag, as I have no intentions of trying to carry hextend, an IO device, a BVM, or anything like that on my vest. I generally stick fairly closely to the Ranger Medic Handbook guidelines for my chest stuff, which seem to be generally what the other medics are talking about- basic tactical trauma care.

Another aspect that I thought of was if "close up" time makes a big difference in the real world and if that should sway me towards the vest pouch rather than the aid bag.

As a caveat before I go any further, my only "combat experience" has been being a FOBIT and getting IDF and one of the convoys I was on the truck behind me got shot a few times. I did not even know that we had taken fire until after the convoy was over (I didn't have comms). I am by no means experienced or "high speed"- that is why I am trying to pick your brains as much as you will let me.

That being said, if we are doing a dismounted patrol or something and one of our guys gets hit- the first thing is fire superiority- shoot back. OK, fire has been suppressed, I run up to the guy, drag him behind a wall or something, throw a tourniquet on him if appropriate per his injuries- care under fire. I can work behind cover somewhat for a short period of time- putting a chest seal or dropping an NPA in if necessary, etc. I understand that I am not under active/accurate enemy fire and I am in a reasonably safe/covered position. I am not sure that I could call working behind a wall or something Tactical Field Care in the schoolhouse sense, but it is not the Care Under Fire in the sense that we are in an open field being shot at. However, we still may be wanting to get back to our trucks in a hurry, getting out of the area, etc. Would there be a distinct advantage in working out of a vest pouch like some of the members posting here are talking about over dropping my aidbag, unzipping it, getting what I need, and then zipping it and getting it back on? Am I way over-thinking this?

In keeping with the stopwatch idea and getting some semblance of real numbers, I may try doing a whole "basic treatment" type deal out of a vest pouch vs an aidbag and seeing if there is any difference. It would have to be something fairly basic, like putting on a TQ, inserting an NPA, and sealing a chest wound because that is about all the stuff I plan on carrying and about all others seem to carry. I know that I could use the practice. I am thinking "volunteering" the fiance to play the patient (and run the stop watch) and treating her like a wounded COB or something without an IFAK. Thoughts or criticisms?

Last edited by Odin21; 03-21-2012 at 20:22.
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Old 03-22-2012, 15:55   #12
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I got back in December from Kandahar, supporting MPs. I mounted one of the TACMED pouched on my vest, non-dominant side, and the other I used as a drop leg on my R leg. My meds, and what not went in a TT chest pouch. If I was dismounted, I had an assault pack that carried supplemental gear and a couple of bags of hextend. I kept it as lean as possible. Remember, all of your guys have IFAKs on. For mounted missions I kept the same set-up only I added a full sized aid bag that stayed on the truck.

This set-up worked great until I really started having to get in and out of them (see TR's suggestion above, everytime I changed my kit I went to the MSTC and tried it out). The NAR 4 replaced the TACMED pouch on my vest as it was easier to close up and get moving quicker than the full on clam shell style TACMED one that I used to have. It was a little bulky, but definately worth it.

If you are using the newer generation IOTVs, use the TAP panel to hold your ammo and you have a ton of space to mount medic and commo pouches. Some of my junior medics did this and really liked it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 20:04   #13
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OMG....

I dont understand the fascination with medics carrying an ass ton of medical supplies on their armor. A few TQs I understand (CUF) but your vest should be for bullets, bombs (grenades), and comms not cric kits, kerlix and ace wraps or OALES.

Trim the fat, put it in a bag (fanny pack or M9-style), and have a larger bag for MCIs/resupply handy in a vehicle if mounted or carry it if the mission will lead you away from vehicles.

There is nothing like having so much crap on your person that you become immobile or cant get out of the vehicle quickly.
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Old 03-23-2012, 13:26   #14
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I dont understand the fascination with medics carrying an ass ton of medical supplies on their armor. A few TQs I understand (CUF) but your vest should be for bullets, bombs (grenades), and comms not cric kits, kerlix and ace wraps or OALES.

Trim the fat, put it in a bag (fanny pack or M9-style), and have a larger bag for MCIs/resupply handy in a vehicle if mounted or carry it if the mission will lead you away from vehicles.

There is nothing like having so much crap on your person that you become immobile or cant get out of the vehicle quickly.
I cannot speak for anyone except me, but when I deployed I never had comms or grenades. I was lucky to have enough ammo. My first convoy that I got put out on my unit only gave me a single magazine for Force Pro. We made contact and I had a 30 round magazine and a pocket knife. I was less than thrilled. As it stands now, we do not have enough comms for the team leaders to all have a radio, much less the medic. I am not sure how much will change as it gets closer to our deployment, but I am also not holding my breath for grenades either. My chain of command is under the impression that medics cannot carry grenades to begin with. I brought in a copy of Geneva to articulate my point, brought up the fact that I do not have a Geneva Health Care Provider ID card, etc but was told that it was very doubtful anyone would get grenades, much less the medic. "We will be lucky if we get flashbangs."

In short, I have a lot of space on my vest (in part because I need to run more) that I can do something with. My previous deployment I just ended up with a 3 mag shingle on my left, a 3 mag shingle on my center, a canteen pouch with TCCC stuff on my right, my IFAK near my right kidney, and a TQ/strap cutter on my upper center. I LOVED having that little on. However, for the most part the most dangerous thing that I did was go to the front gate to pick up a LN in our ambulance. We are currently training with ASVs, so I am really tempted to go with as thin of a kit as I can responsibly get away with. I hate how small those ASVs seem to be... The fact that I have so much space on my vest I guess is the driving factor behind wanting to put some medical stuff there. 6 magazines or 6 shotgun strips, a TQ, an IFAK, and a cutter do not take up that much space. I would love to fill the remainder with grenades, comms, etc but I don't have them, so I guess my first inclination is to put medical stuff there.


A question for those medics far more experienced than I- how did the Ranger Medic Handbook packing list come to be? Is there a study behind it? It seems that many of you adamantly disagree and I am inclined to go with your advice over a list in the back of a book. However, if there is this much negative blow back from you guys who obviously know your stuff, I am just wondering who came up with that list and why.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:40   #15
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In short, I have a lot of space on my vest (in part because I need to run more) that I can do something with...The fact that I have so much space on my vest I guess is the driving factor behind wanting to put some medical stuff there.
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