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Old 05-07-2008, 06:23   #16
The Reaper
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Wow, looks like some of you guys are already packing.

I will try to keep this updated and answer questions regularly.

The mission analysis is normally the key, but in this case, it isn't the destination, but the journey. Do not overly focus on the recording of the journey beyond what was given above. Focus on the tools and skills you will need to get there.

The Time Travel Commission has not been invented yet. Once you clear initial white man country, pretty much any gear you have is GTG to use. If you are worried, wear an overcoat and put some skins over your ruck. There is no external moral component here either, you can do as you wish in your interactions. At the same time, you might think about what happened in Salem, Mass only eight years previously.

I see some people going extremely light, and some extremely heavy. Anyone planning on humping a laminated stack of 1:24,000s of the entire US needs to do a quick count and check the shipping weight. Those who plan to do it in their skivvies with a Kabar in their teeth need to step outside like that and spend a night on the ground.

I think the 18-24 month time estimate is correct, which means two winters. Those with a northern route may want to consider that. Do you plan on holing up for the winter, maybe building a semi-permanent shelter, or pressing on regardless? Pretty hard to travel and gather food in the winter while crossing the Great Lakes and Northern Plains on foot. Hostile natives are a legitimate concern, as they were for our forefathers. Good research might ID a route through friendlier country.

Starting in the spring with plans to cross in 300 days is unrealistic, but you are welcome to try it. Remember that you have to catch, kill, and prepare your food daily. Crossing two major mountain ranges, some huge rivers, and a desert or two, all on foot, might slow you down. Also consider that your schedule would put you in a Donner Pass situation, where you will be in the Rockies/Sierra Nevadas in January/February. You will probably not make 10 miles per day then, if you can move at all.

Some of the natives will definitely be hostile, but 5.56 will not be particularly effective on a bear or a moose. This is not strictly a combat patrol, though there will almost certainly be some.

Shotgun shells are notoriously poor tradeoffs in weight for game gathered. Let me know what 300 rounds of 20 gauge shot weighs.

If I have to live outside for two years, 'skeeters, rain, snow, etc., I am inclined toward the tent crowd, or at least a shelter of some sort. Winters will require a sleeping bag or equivalent skins (heavier).

Anyone wishing to present an opposing viewpoint, feel free to do so. I am not an expert at this, just trying to look at some alternatives to exercise my mind and reconsider some of my kit.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

TR
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:54   #17
JumpinJoe1010
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I would look at a few things that would be invaluable over the long haul. First I would have a thread and needle kit that could assemble hides, since my clothes would wear out. Also I would use the standard firearm of the day, which would involve plenty of ammo. I would have one that is 50 caliber range for bear and buffalo, then a smaller 300/308 caliber for deer and such. Good axes would be needed to build a small house for waiting out the winters. Rope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them. I would pack rations for those occasions I had a bad hunting day, and pack them on a mule, and ride a horse. A good sleeping bag would be a nice comfort to stay warm at night, along with a tent, because it is much easier to stay dry and warm when a sudden weather system takes shape. Books on plants that are poisonous, medicinal, and are good to eat. Maps would be a must, and I would bring sets of those, along with notebooks to record my journeys. I really wouldn't want many of the modern conveniences because they wouldn't translate, other than modern rifles with rifling.

I know you said to hump it, but if I were thinking outside those parameters, riding would be the way to go.
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Last edited by JumpinJoe1010; 05-07-2008 at 07:02. Reason: sentence structure
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Old 05-07-2008, 07:45   #18
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Question: How long does one have between the time of accepting the challenge and actually starting the trek?

nevermind, I saw it.
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:20   #19
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I confess I have zero field experience.

That said, why is no one considering betalights instead of flashlights? The tritium has a half life of 7 years, they're low-weight, durable, and dependable.

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Old 05-07-2008, 08:37   #20
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I'd venture a trek via a southern route - following roughly the I-20 to I-10 route. (before anyone says it - I know the interstates didn't exist then. I meant the general cooridor that they follow)

From an early port in SC (Charleston - est 1670) and one of the shortest routes (to San Diego) the distance is 2400-ish miles. At 10 miles/day that's 240 days. Rounded to 300 days to account for injuries, navigational...err...tangents, and "meetings" with locals, I think would be reasonable. for $10M, sure!

(After getting paid, could I then time travel back a decade or so, get the $10M changed to Canadian $ at 60%, then re-exchange it modern day??? )


Ideally leaving toward the beginning of the spring, that way I would miss the hurricane season while near the Gulf of Mexico - although the TVD would be cold. Using the southern route, I would miss most of the Rockies, save the foothills near the TX/MEX border. I can also bring less extreme clothing/shelter than if I were travelling along the northern route.

Without over thinking it, here goes - weight added for realistic analysis:

Pack:
Mystery Ranch 6500 - 5lbs
Foraging bag - .25lb

Water:
MSR MIOX purifier kit - .5lb
Rechargable batteries - 1lb
Recharger with lightweight solar cells - 2lbs (I mean, come on - if we can build a TIME-FREAKING-MACHINE, we can have lightweight solar, right???)
2quart collapsable canteen - .5lbs
100x iodine tablets - 2lbs

Food:
10x dehydrated meals (for emergency use only) - 3.8lbs
1000 waterproof matches - 2lbs

Shelter:
MSR FLING (2 person tent) - 3.5 lbs
Sleep system - 4lbs

Protection:
M4 with .308 upper and ACOG - 8lbs
300rds 308 - 13lbs
Weapon cleaning kit - 2lbs
Small hatchet - 3lbs
Multi-tool - 1lb
Sharpening stone - .5lb

Clothing:
3x moisture wicking layers - 1.5lbs
2x insulating layers - 2lbs
1x wind proof layers - 1lb
10x socks - 2lbs
Quality boots - 4.5lbs
contact gloves - .25lbs
mittens - 2lbs
knit cap - .25lbs
sewing kit - .5lb
Sunglasses - .25lbs

Nav:
2x Mag Compass - 1lb.
2x silk map

MISC:
Fishing line - 1lb
550 cord, 100ft - 1.5lbs
first aid kit - 3lbs
3x micro-flashlights - .25lbs
Novel - 1lb
perpetual movement watch - .25lbs
5x wire Carabiners - 1.5lbs

PR:
(for trading/gifts)
small polaroid camera with 100 exposures - 4lbs

(for demonstration/scaring the natives, if need be)
2x Whistle - .1lb
5x penflares - 2.8lbs

That puts my total weight - clothing included - at 82.7 lbs. At 10 miles/day, using sound field craft and the "waste not - want not" approach, I'd say it's definately doable. Although, 18 months would be better... that's 4.5 miles/day.

Count me in
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Last edited by gagners; 05-07-2008 at 08:44.
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:45   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJoe1010 View Post
Rope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them.
Let us know how that works out for you...
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:22   #22
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I weighed a box of 25 20ga shells- 1.25 per box or about 15lbs for 300. That's a chunk of weight off of 100lbs. Most game birds could be arkansas'd on the ground or water with a rifle. I've heard the 5.56 Lemas is great stuff, but I'd be very nervous about pumping a 68 grain bullet into a pissed off 1000 pound sow grizzly bear. I think a .308 semi-auto (fn/fal for me) of some description would be the way to go.
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:29   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJoe1010 View Post
I would look at a few things that would be invaluable over the long haul. First I would have a thread and needle kit that could assemble hides, since my clothes would wear out. Also I would use the standard firearm of the day, which would involve plenty of ammo. I would have one that is 50 caliber range for bear and buffalo, then a smaller 300/308 caliber for deer and such. Good axes would be needed to build a small house for waiting out the winters. Rope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them. I would pack rations for those occasions I had a bad hunting day, and pack them on a mule, and ride a horse. A good sleeping bag would be a nice comfort to stay warm at night, along with a tent, because it is much easier to stay dry and warm when a sudden weather system takes shape. Books on plants that are poisonous, medicinal, and are good to eat. Maps would be a must, and I would bring sets of those, along with notebooks to record my journeys. I really wouldn't want many of the modern conveniences because they wouldn't translate, other than modern rifles with rifling.

I know you said to hump it, but if I were thinking outside those parameters, riding would be the way to go.
I think you are refusing to accept the repeated comments that you have to hump this stuff (pack animals would be a completely different line of planning), have an excessive belief in the accuracy and reliability of flintlock firearms, the availability of black powder and shot outside of civilization, the ability to defend oneself from multiple assailants or large game with a flintlock, your ability to fabricate clothing from hides (which must be prepped and tanned first), the weight and durability of printed material, the weight of heavy construction tools and the ease of using them, the weight of a lot of food, and the ease of capturing and taming a wild horse (probably not too many around in 1700).

Other than that, you are GTG.

gagners, I think you are on the right track and appreciate the detail. There are some things I would add and delete, but by and large, you have a supportable plan. Let me know where you got the 8 lb. AR-10 with the ACOG. Mine must be retaining water. Speaking of which, you have some serious desert to cross, you might want to bring more than 2 quarts of water.

If I were to go back to 1700 for profiteering, I would buy art instead of looneys.

Shootist. Agree completely. Would you also take a pistol?

TR
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:52   #24
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...to assist with the initial exploration of North America.
Is this challenge restricted to the area that became the United States? If not, and I'm only doing this to win a bet, I'd pop in at Veracruz and head NW to San Diego.

Pat
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:58   #25
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gagners, I think you are on the right track and appreciate the detail. There are some things I would add and delete, but by and large, you have a supportable plan. Let me know where you got the 8 lb. AR-10 with the ACOG. Mine must be retaining water. Speaking of which, you have some serious desert to cross, you might want to bring more than 2 quarts of water.

If I were to go back to 1700 for profiteering, I would buy art instead of looneys.

TR
Got the 8lbs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-10 (as I only own an M4, I know, I know )

Water. Agreed. @ 8.3 lbs per gallon, how much would you recommend? Never had to source my own water in the desert before...

And for profiteering? I'd sell rides on my new TIME-MACHINE!!!

Edited to Add: Out of curiousity, What would you add or delete?
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:00   #26
The Reaper
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Is this challenge restricted to the area that became the United States? If not, and I'm only doing this to win a bet, I'd pop in at Veracruz and head NW to San Diego.

Pat
Yes. That would be a start from an existing port city on the East Coast of what became the US.

gagners, the listed current weight of an Armalite AR-10 is 9.8lbs, stripped. Add the mount, ACOG, loaded mag, etc., and you are probably at 11-12 lbs.

TR
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:07   #27
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I think a pistol would be necessary for defense against two-legged creatures. I would take a Glock 17 or an XD9, the 9mm ammo would be a little less weight than .45 acp.

Instead of a hatchet, I would take a Wyoming Saw, which is a neat little light saw that has a wood blade and bone blade. That would save some weight as well.

I think I would also invest a great deal of my 30 day prep time talking to academics and historians and try to get and idea of what tribes are likely to be where and when.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:10   #28
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Depending upon the route you choose, there is water in the form of rivers and creeks for approx. 98% of the trek. (hint - look at some maps from the early 1800s. Humans tend to change the environment to suit their needs.)

Researching this is very interesting. Lots of stuff to take into consideration.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:21   #29
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My field time credentials, I lived in a bamboo hut in a remote jungle village for 2 years with no running water or electricity. I did not have to hunt for my meals. I was able to resupply myself with 80-150 kg of food and tobacco from the capitol every 120 days, I had clean water and a river to bathe in, the village supplied me all forms of local food but I did spend time in the gardens when I could, I was not allowed to pig hunt as hunting was proscribed by a in-country Peace Corps regulation plus the village Chief was worried I would get killed.

600 days (give or take) x 2 cooked meals a day = 1200 meals minimum. All of your ammo loads should have at least 2000 hunting rounds (can I get a plasma rifle?)...

When I was living stone age I had to spend 3 hours a day on 2 cooked meals, factor in building a fire, food prep and cooking and then clean up. Now add gathering to that number it adds at least 10 more hours a week (two trips to the garden, digging yams, planting yams etc.) even more time will be needed if you are hunting. Now add low calories and decreasing energy your times will increase on all tasks.

Starches, carbos and vitamins are going to be rough to procure on the trial.
As your body runs out of these basic building blocks healing, endurance and recovery is going to suffer.

All batteries die. All solar rechargeable anything die. All fabric rip, rats and raccoons eat tents and backpacks and extra clothes . LED lights are one exception and the led lamps would last barring a large rock smashing it . But the batteries that run it will run out and then it is just dead weight (can we get any "space" 123 batteries that will last for 3 years?).

A good self winding watch, a tough compass and a detailed map of the pick up location (think top of predominate hill at the mouth of a predominate river that I can find with no map or compass).

Soles split off of boots condition your feet to moccasins that you can produce yourself.

Alone you are not going to fight the natives. If it comes down to a gun/bow fight one moderate wound to you and you are dead. Perhaps consider diplomacy over an assault rifle (and optics that will fail only add weight). You need a great hunting rifle with very few moving parts. A non-plasma handgun seems to be dead weight to me.

I would further suggest you pack on 30 extra pounds of fat on your body and condition yourself to move them around to give you an internal reserve. If you start walking at 5% body fat you have a very slim margin of error on food collection rates.

Cleaning, if you dont bathe and wash your clothes semi regularly any scratches, cuts and bug bites will be come very infected every time. Your going to need soap.

First aid, your going to need a host of meds/supplies. If you are not prepared one nasty cut will kill you. Also I think I read that malaria was in pasts of the US back then so you are going to need a cure or two. plus all the other ills that befall you when you move somewhere new.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:34   #30
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2000 rounds is really heavy. Especially with all of the other stuff you need. Sounds like it would be a good idea to learn how to make pemmican and jerky so you can stretch your kills out!
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