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Florida High School Shooting...Should we talk about it yet?
Old 02-14-2018, 17:16   #1
Old Dog New Trick
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Florida High School Shooting...Should we talk about it yet?

16-Dead, 14-Injured (estimated)

18y/o - Shooter apparently was in JROTC previously at school.

Sounds like semi-auto rifle with controlled (trained) three round bursts fired in multiple succession.

One witness reported the fire alarm was initiated seconds before the shooting started. Which would indicate an organized ambush in the hallway.

Shooter walked from school before police arrived.

Democrats calling for gun control before the bodies have cooled.


Thoughts?
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Last edited by Old Dog New Trick; 02-14-2018 at 17:22.
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:25   #2
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Very sad situation for folks involved.

The alleged shooter has been captured.

Parkland is an upscale neighborhood in Broward County.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points made in the excerpts below from the letter dated January 29, 2013 - these shootings are a complex sociological problem.

There will be loud calls for gun control.


“First, it is important that we recognize that this is not a gun control problem; it is a complex sociological problem. No single course of action will solve the problem. Therefore, it is our recommendation that a series of diverse steps be undertaken, the implementation of which will require patience and diligence to realize an effect. These are as follows:

1. First and foremost we support our Second Amendment right in that “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

2. We support State and Local School Boards in their efforts to establish security protocols in whatever manner and form that they deem necessary and adequate. One of the great strengths of our Republic is that State and Local governments can be creative in solving problems. Things that work can be shared. Our point is that no one knows what will work and there is no one single solution, so let’s allow the State and Local governments with the input of the citizens to make the decisions. Most recently the Cleburne Independent School District will become the first district in North Texas to consider allowing some teachers to carry concealed guns. We do not opine as to the appropriateness of this decision, but we do support their right to make this decision for themselves.

3. We recommend that Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) laws be passed in every State. AOT is formerly known as Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) and allows the courts to order certain individuals with mental disorders to comply with treatment while living in the community. In each of the mass shooting incidents the perpetrator was mentally unstable. We also believe that people who have been adjudicated as incompetent should be simultaneously examined to determine whether they should be allowed the right to retain/purchase firearms.

4. We support the return of firearm safety programs to schools along the lines of the successful "Eddie the Eagle" program, which can be taught in schools by Peace Officers or other trained professionals.

5. Recent social psychology research clearly indicates that there is a direct relationship between gratuitously violent movies/video games and desensitization to real violence and increased aggressive behavior particularly in children and young adults (See Nicholas L. Carnagey, et al. 2007. “The effect of video game violence on physiological desensitization to real-life violence” and the references therein. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 43:489-496). Therefore, we strongly recommend that gratuitous violence in movies and video games be discouraged. War and war-like behavior should not be glorified. Hollywood and video game producers are exploiting something they know nothing about. General Sherman famously said “War is Hell!” Leave war to the Professionals. War is not a game and should not be "sold" as entertainment to our children.

6. We support repeal of the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it obviously isn’t working. It is our opinion that “Gun-Free Zones” anywhere are too tempting of an environment for the mentally disturbed individual to inflict their brand of horror with little fear of interference. While governmental and non-governmental organizations, businesses, and individuals should be free to implement a Gun-Free Zone if they so choose, they should also assume Tort liability for that decision.

7. We believe that border states should take responsibility for implementation of border control laws to prevent illegal shipments of firearms and drugs. Drugs have been illegal in this country for a long, long time yet the Federal Government manages to seize only an estimated 10% of this contraband at our borders. Given this dismal performance record that is misguided and inept (“Fast and Furious”), we believe that border States will be far more competent at this mission.

8. This is our country, these are our rights. We believe that it is time that we take personal responsibility for our choices and actions rather than abdicate that responsibility to someone else under the illusion that we have done something that will make us all safer. We have a responsibility to stand by our principles and act in accordance with them. Our children are watching and they will follow the example we set.”
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:31   #3
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I remember signing that. It went nowhere farther than the people who can implement it. Sad that this is “common sense” and goes nowhere.
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:38   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
I remember signing that. It went nowhere farther than the people who can implement it. Sad that this is “common sense” and goes nowhere.
ODNT, that’s one reason I reproduced it for new folks to read.

There are well thought out, experienced and loving answers in that letter - but politicians and bureaucrats must have the courage to read and truly understand the points made in that letter - and not kick the can down the road.

Early reports are in now that a modern sporting rifle was used.
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:38   #5
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Unhappy

Was watching Fox earlier and saw it unfold.

Thoughts and Prayers out to those families of the dead children.

Senseless tragedy. Cannot even imagine the grief.


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Old 02-14-2018, 17:39   #6
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I heard on my drive home that the shooter was 19, had made pervious threats against students and that he had be banned from being on school property. Sounds like there were quite a few warning signs. I would be interested to know if he was taking prescription mood altering drugs.


Very sad...

Was talking to my daughter and she said that in her school the policy is to E&E is possible and as a last resort hunker down in place.
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:42   #7
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Old 02-14-2018, 17:55   #8
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And in the NW corner of the country: Grandmother foils alleged Everett school shooting plot
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Old 02-14-2018, 20:24   #9
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Maybe it’s time for facial recognition cameras and software to be used as one more layer of security in school security plans.

We’re already close to a CCTV police state on campuses from elementary schools to college but it’s still in the reactive state not the proactive state.

The technology is there 24/7...it only takes an IT person to program an alert when someone is banned from the grounds. It won’t matter if it’s tomorrow or next year the camera is on duty.
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Old 02-14-2018, 20:26   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyz View Post
Very sad situation for folks involved.

The alleged shooter has been captured.

Parkland is an upscale neighborhood in Broward County.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points made in the excerpts below from the letter dated January 29, 2013 - these shootings are a complex sociological problem.

There will be loud calls for gun control.


“First, it is important that we recognize that this is not a gun control problem; it is a complex sociological problem. No single course of action will solve the problem. Therefore, it is our recommendation that a series of diverse steps be undertaken, the implementation of which will require patience and diligence to realize an effect. These are as follows:

1. First and foremost we support our Second Amendment right in that “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

2. We support State and Local School Boards in their efforts to establish security protocols in whatever manner and form that they deem necessary and adequate. One of the great strengths of our Republic is that State and Local governments can be creative in solving problems. Things that work can be shared. Our point is that no one knows what will work and there is no one single solution, so let’s allow the State and Local governments with the input of the citizens to make the decisions. Most recently the Cleburne Independent School District will become the first district in North Texas to consider allowing some teachers to carry concealed guns. We do not opine as to the appropriateness of this decision, but we do support their right to make this decision for themselves.

3. We recommend that Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) laws be passed in every State. AOT is formerly known as Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) and allows the courts to order certain individuals with mental disorders to comply with treatment while living in the community. In each of the mass shooting incidents the perpetrator was mentally unstable. We also believe that people who have been adjudicated as incompetent should be simultaneously examined to determine whether they should be allowed the right to retain/purchase firearms.

4. We support the return of firearm safety programs to schools along the lines of the successful "Eddie the Eagle" program, which can be taught in schools by Peace Officers or other trained professionals.

5. Recent social psychology research clearly indicates that there is a direct relationship between gratuitously violent movies/video games and desensitization to real violence and increased aggressive behavior particularly in children and young adults (See Nicholas L. Carnagey, et al. 2007. “The effect of video game violence on physiological desensitization to real-life violence” and the references therein. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 43:489-496). Therefore, we strongly recommend that gratuitous violence in movies and video games be discouraged. War and war-like behavior should not be glorified. Hollywood and video game producers are exploiting something they know nothing about. General Sherman famously said “War is Hell!” Leave war to the Professionals. War is not a game and should not be "sold" as entertainment to our children.

6. We support repeal of the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it obviously isn’t working. It is our opinion that “Gun-Free Zones” anywhere are too tempting of an environment for the mentally disturbed individual to inflict their brand of horror with little fear of interference. While governmental and non-governmental organizations, businesses, and individuals should be free to implement a Gun-Free Zone if they so choose, they should also assume Tort liability for that decision.

7. We believe that border states should take responsibility for implementation of border control laws to prevent illegal shipments of firearms and drugs. Drugs have been illegal in this country for a long, long time yet the Federal Government manages to seize only an estimated 10% of this contraband at our borders. Given this dismal performance record that is misguided and inept (“Fast and Furious”), we believe that border States will be far more competent at this mission.

8. This is our country, these are our rights. We believe that it is time that we take personal responsibility for our choices and actions rather than abdicate that responsibility to someone else under the illusion that we have done something that will make us all safer. We have a responsibility to stand by our principles and act in accordance with them. Our children are watching and they will follow the example we set.”
Thank you for posting this, as I was going to ask the Professionals, about possible solutions/preventions to the problem. I may have missed it, but what is the source of this letter?

It is also infuriating that the extreme taxes most of us pay to school districts are used for things that will not prevent this from happening (see Allen, Tx football stadium http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...nap-story.html). You know, sports are good, but I would rather pay for an ARMED security presence at my kid's school. Or invest in the firearm safety programs that you mentioned. Or any number of the solutions that are mentioned in the letter you posted. Again, thank you.
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Old 02-14-2018, 20:31   #11
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TWITCHY below is a link to the letter you inquired about.

Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned
29 Jan 2013
Page 1 of 3

Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ight=amendment

ETA a PDF version of letter below.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...7&d=1359481849
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Old 02-14-2018, 23:14   #12
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Tonyz, thank you for the reply and the link. As far as I’m concerned, the proposed solutions encompass the complexity of the problem, focus on the various aspects of the problem, and offer practical solutions in agreement with the Constitution.

Do you know the degree of circulation the letter has received in political circles (Congress, state legislatures)? Also, with permission from this forum, I would like to submit the letter to my State and US representatives.

Thank you for your time.

Mikal
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Old 02-15-2018, 00:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Maybe it’s time for facial recognition cameras and software to be used as one more layer of security in school security plans.

We’re already close to a CCTV police state on campuses from elementary schools to college but it’s still in the reactive state not the proactive state.

The technology is there 24/7...it only takes an IT person to program an alert when someone is banned from the grounds. It won’t matter if it’s tomorrow or next year the camera is on duty.
Such a tectonic change since we were all kids so long ago.

I like the idea of enhanced security, as prices for it drop.

But visiting the US now and seeing modern school designs seems like an analog to US embassies around the world that shifted from being architecturally cool beacons of the USA to zombie bunker practical.

I really like the book Tribe by Sebastian Junger.

I think his anthropology/sociology documentation of soldiers applies to all in a way.

Some of us(including most on this forum) belong to one or more tribes.

Increasingly, most civilians don’t.....and that can include Vets who are challenged to integrate into a new tribe and/or lose their old one(s).

Most of us need to feel necessary and a part of something more.

I think this loss of personal tribe is playing a considerable factor in depression, mental illness, and quite possibly a major contributing factor to many of these school shootings.

I’m left think of MIST, Mechanism, Injury, Symptom, Treatment.

Maybe one of the Symptoms is schools shootings.

If that’s the case, then attacking 2A is not a treatment, but a placebo.

I’d like to see effort on preventing the Mechanism of, and Injury.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:47   #14
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Originally Posted by TWITCHY View Post
Do you know the degree of circulation the letter has received in political circles (Congress, state legislatures)? Also, with permission from this forum, I would like to submit the letter to my State and US representatives.

Thank you for your time.

Mikal
TWITCHY, I don’t know the extent of circulation but the boss or someone who does know will probably be along shortly.

In 2013 the message was clear (I hope this helps):

“1100 Green Berets Signed this Letter

We have a list of all their names and unlike any MSM outlets we can confirm that over 1100 Green Berets did sign. The list includes Special Forces Major Generals & Special Forces Command Sergeants Major down to the lowest ranking "Green Beret".

The letter stands for itself.

Read it and send it everywhere.

Team Sergeant”
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:24   #15
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JFC....LINK

A tragedy years in the making combined with psych drugs....the guardians let him walk out with the gun on a school day...

Quote:
Friends said he spoke little of his relatives. He and his brother were adopted when they were young by Lynda and Roger Cruz, of Long Island, New York, according to relatives. They raised the boys in Parkland.

Roger Cruz died over a decade ago and Lynda struggled with the boys, said Barbara Kumbatovich, a former sister-in-law. “She did the best she could. They were adopted and had some emotional issues,” she said.

Kumbatovich said she believed Nikolas Cruz was on medication to deal with his emotional fragility. “She was struggling with Nikolas the last couple years,” she said.

After his mother died, Cruz moved in with a friend, whose family in Broward took him in and even gave him own bedroom. He worked at a dollar store and went to a school for at-risk youth, said Fort Lauderdale attorney Jim Lewis, who is representing the family.

Cruz had his AR-15, but the family asked that gun remain locked up in a cabinet, Lewis said. On Wednesday morning, Cruz slept in and gave only a cryptic reason why.

“He said, ‘It’s Valentine’s Day and I don’t go to school on Valentine’s Day,’” Lewis said.

The family had no idea what was going to happen, Lewis said. “Nobody saw this coming,” Lewis said. “They’re shocked.”

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