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Old 06-02-2010, 23:49   #61
Irishsquid
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Originally Posted by WholeManin2010 View Post
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.
Never fired one at a person, so all I have to go on is "ballistic gelatin." It's not a reliable indicator...but it's what I have. That said, In gel, or jugs of water, it leaves an incredibly impressive wound track, for 5.56mm

Out of curiosity, given a lack of living targets to shoot at without going to jail, can anyone recommend a better medium than gelatin for ammunition testing?
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:54   #62
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Originally Posted by WholeManin2010 View Post
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.
Depends on your ability to put them where you need to under the circumstances.

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Never fired one at a person, so all I have to go on is "ballistic gelatin." It's not a reliable indicator...but it's what I have. That said, In gel, or jugs of water, it leaves an incredibly impressive wound track, for 5.56mm

Out of curiosity, given a lack of living targets to shoot at without going to jail, can anyone recommend a better medium than gelatin for ammunition testing?
Live tissue.

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Old 06-03-2010, 07:36   #63
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Originally Posted by WholeManin2010 View Post
Funny, I actually have a couple mags of both the 77gr Black Hills AND Hornady's 75 gr TAP within arm's reach, for the same purpose. Both make pretty holes in paper, but I've always wondered how differently they'd work against uninvited company.
I shot a deer a couple years ago with a Blackhills 77gr SMK the deer walked like 3 yds and fell over with little signs of bleeding. Entry wound was in the front armpit, never found a exit hole but it was like a bomb went off internally, the sternum was already split and made field dressing little bit quicker.
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Old 06-05-2010, 19:57   #64
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Depends on your ability to put them where you need to under the circumstances.
Got it, Sir. That said, should one expect widely different results between the two (BH and TAP) at a live target - both fired from 10 and 100 meters, respectively, and both striking center mass?

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Old 06-05-2010, 20:41   #65
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I shot a deer a couple years ago with a Blackhills 77gr SMK the deer walked like 3 yds and fell over with little signs of bleeding. Entry wound was in the front armpit, never found a exit hole but it was like a bomb went off internally, the sternum was already split and made field dressing little bit quicker.
Last time I was hunting I just showed the deer (a twelve pointer) I was using Black Hills Ammo and it just laid down and died.

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Old 06-11-2010, 21:58   #66
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For "anti-social purposes" I use Black Hills Ammunition 5.56, 77 Grain Sierra MatchKing ... cause everyone deserves the best, once.
Would that be the civilian version of the MK262 ?
Used to get some from the AMU years ago. Excellent grouping at 600yds (with good wind doping)
Never knew the terminal effect is that devastating, Paslode.
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Old 06-12-2010, 09:01   #67
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Got it, Sir. That said, should one expect widely different results between the two (BH and TAP) at a live target - both fired from 10 and 100 meters, respectively, and both striking center mass?
You can't make a head shot at 10 meters with an M4?

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Old 06-13-2010, 08:16   #68
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You can't make a head shot at 10 meters with an M4?

TR
Most certainly can, Sir. I was really just wondering how different one round's destructive characteristics might be from the other, from the same rifle and varied distance -- and assuming that the shooter hit where he meant to. For example, Paslode mentioned what the BH 77gr did to his quarry; I'd be interested in knowing how the 75gr TAP would have acted under similar circumstances.
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:36   #69
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Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:40   #70
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Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.

You can get 100 grain .223 projos. Not going to be moving very fast in a 5.56x45 though.

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Old 06-14-2010, 09:57   #71
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5.56mm "Heavies"

Precision 5.56mm ammunition has evolved from the initial tasking by Colonel Mac Johnson, USAMU Commander, to the Army Rifle Team gunsmiths back in the early 90s.

The force does not shoot M14s. His tasking and direction was to make the M16 a Camp Perry-winning platform. The rest is history as the rifles left the shop to "Let the ass-kickings begin."

The M16 has since broken nearly all M14 records including the Interservice 10-man team score that stood for over 25 years.

The 69-grain Sierra Match King is roughly the same length as the M855 Ball bullet -- the solid lead core weighs slightly more than Green Tip's steel penetrator but is a hell of a lot more accurate to 500 yards. It is more sensitive to wind past 300 yards than heavier bullets but provided the Army Team with the highest "X-count" on NRA targets at 200 and 300 yards.

The Berger 73 is the most accurate "Heavy" to 300-500. It was tested and used for several seasons, however it is also blown around a little more than 75s and 77s at 300, 500, and 600 yards (where the M16 is expected to hit E-type silhouettes in the rapid-fire National Infantry Trophy Team Match). The reason it is not the bullet in Mark 262 is Walt and Eunice Berger retired in the critical period when competitive teams needed a consistent bullet source and no one knew whether or not Berger bullets would be produced after Walt retired -- hence Hornady 75s and Sierra 77s got the nod).

Both 69s and 73s generally shoot well in 1-9 twist or faster commercial barrels.

Hornady 75s and 77s are good bullets to 500-600 yards. They fly true and hit where you aim. You get more kills because the bullets go where pointed (as opposed to GI Green Tip with wildly varying lot-to-lot accuracy). Directly after 9-11 a 5th Group truck arrived at the AMU ammo dock and left with a metric ass-load of 77s for SPRs.

Powell River Laboratories and DRT ammunition use the same sintered tungsten and polymer core frangible bullets designed by "Bubba" Beal in Tennessee. With cores heavier than lead they fly true at long to very long range and hit well -- they are, however, designed to come apart if they contact something hard (walls, steel, etc.).

The heaviest (limited availability) lead-core magazine-length bullet is the Hornady 82-grain for hand loaders.

None of this makes a bit of difference if you can't hit the damn target -- paper, animal, goblin, or Hajji.

Most M4gery shooters don't shoot much past 50-100 yards. Someone who doesn't handload will do well with 55-grain plain box Winchester, Federal, etc.

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Old 06-14-2010, 10:00   #72
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Hmm, I may need to look around for some pics of what the 75 gr. TAP will do to a wild pig...fun to say the least!
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:36   #73
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Whats the heaviest load that still fits into magazine length? I keep hearing mention of 75 grainers and above... sure makes 62 grains seem like a slouch.
Are talking about staying within the 5.56x45 cartridge or another cartridge (6.8 SPC for example) that will fit within the magazine?
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:54   #74
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Precision 5.56mm ammunition has evolved from the initial tasking by Colonel Mac Johnson, USAMU Commander, to the Army Rifle Team gunsmiths back in the early 90s...
Great information... Thanks for this!
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Old 08-23-2010, 20:59   #75
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Are talking about staying within the 5.56x45 cartridge or another cartridge (6.8 SPC for example) that will fit within the magazine?
5.56.

I regularly shoot my AR's out to 450 yds. If one of the local F&G clubs gets what they're planning done, I'll be able to shoot 5.56 out to 600, and shoot my grendel out to 1K.

I'm a big fan of equipping for the mission at hand. 55gr rounds are great for training. But, having just gotten into handloading, I want to figure out with as few variations as possible what the best loadings are going to be for:

A.) work on soft targets from 0-400 yds out of 1/9 16" barrels.

B.) work on soft targets out to 600 with maximum "oomph" and precision out of 1/8.5 20" douglas barrel.

The grendel is a whole nother animal. 140gn AMAX projos for work under 500yds, 123gn AMAX for work over 500.
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