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Old 02-06-2006, 04:44   #16
azmg
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Don't know if this would help anyone but I found it informative:

Q. What type of ammo is current issue for US Military forces?

All front-line forces are armed with M16A2s and M4s and are issued M855 as standard-issue ammo. A few remaining Reserve and National Guard units, as well as some Air Force units, still carry M16A1s (you've probably seen them in the airports lately) and are issued M193 Ball (if they are issued any ammo at all) because of the difference in twist of the barrel.

Some special forces units, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq, are using Mk262 and Mk262 Mod1 ammo. These are rounds loaded with heavy (up to 77 grain) JHP match bullets, in response to some issues with M855 terminal performance. This continues a recent trend towards heavier rounds (69 grains and over) for improved terminal ballistic performance.


Q. What about Mk262 or Mk262 Mod1?

Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. It was soon discovered that while these loads were both very accurate and had excellent terminal ballistics even from short barrels, the loads weren't quite ideal for combat. The target bullets had no cannelure, and the bullets weren't crimped in place, which could allow bullet set-back during feeding and raise chamber pressures to dangerous levels. Further, most loads were of somewhat mild velocities, as the load was chosen with accuracy, not terminal ballistics, in mind.

Sierra was asked to produce a bullet cannelured version, but they intially refused.

Nosler did not have any problems putting a cannelure on their 77 gr bullet. Black Hills Ammunition was approached to make a slightly modified version of these loads for combat use. A cannelure was specified, the bullets were to be crimped, and the load was to be up to military chamber pressures, with maximum safe velocity being desired. The primers were to be crimped and sealed, and of course, overall length had allow for loading in standard magazines.

The Marines (in conjunction with a large Federal LE agency) did extensive testing of this large experimental batch of BH loaded Nosler 77 gr cannelured OTM's in the Fall of 2002. It offered outstanding terminal performance out to the maximum test distance of 300 yards. They then ordered 1.1 million rounds of cannelured 77 gr OTM's via the existing Mk262 SOCOM contract (which did not specify a manufacturer) administered through Crane. The cannelured 77 gr load was designated Mk262 Mod 1, and the orginal Mk262 was re-designated Mk262 Mod 0.





According to one observer: "At this point bureaucracy, nepostism, and capitalism converged. Sierra realized they were about to lose a VERY LARGE contract and suddenly they agreed to make the 77 gr SMK with a cannelure. Crane pushed for Sierra to get the contract over Nosler, although the Nosler offered better terminal performance. On the other hand, in all fairness, the Sierra bullet was slightly more accurate out of government test barrels than the Nosler--both shoot nearly the same out of real rifles, such as the by then type classified Mk12 SPR."

Therefore, while a few hundred-thousand rounds of 77 gr Nosler OTM was manufactured and used primarily for testing, the cannelured 77 gr SMK was used in the the multi-million round contract for the Mk262 Mod 1.

Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk262 Mod1. As of April 2004, Mk 262 Mod1 has seen extensive use in Afghanistan and Iraq, in carbines with barrels as short as 10.5", and has proven to be very effective at ranges that M855 is woefully inadequate from the same weapons. It is also commonly used in the Army's "Special Purpose Rifles" (SPRs), which are accurized 18"-barreled rifles used by soldiers with additional combat marksmanship training in a squad sharp-shooter role.
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Old 02-06-2006, 07:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azmg
Don't know if this would help anyone but I found it informative:

Q. What type of ammo is current issue for US Military forces?

All front-line forces are armed with M16A2s and M4s and are issued M855 as standard-issue ammo. A few remaining Reserve and National Guard units, as well as some Air Force units, still carry M16A1s (you've probably seen them in the airports lately) and are issued M193 Ball (if they are issued any ammo at all) because of the difference in twist of the barrel.

Some special forces units, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq, are using Mk262 and Mk262 Mod1 ammo. These are rounds loaded with heavy (up to 77 grain) JHP match bullets, in response to some issues with M855 terminal performance. This continues a recent trend towards heavier rounds (69 grains and over) for improved terminal ballistic performance.


Q. What about Mk262 or Mk262 Mod1?

Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. It was soon discovered that while these loads were both very accurate and had excellent terminal ballistics even from short barrels, the loads weren't quite ideal for combat. The target bullets had no cannelure, and the bullets weren't crimped in place, which could allow bullet set-back during feeding and raise chamber pressures to dangerous levels. Further, most loads were of somewhat mild velocities, as the load was chosen with accuracy, not terminal ballistics, in mind.

Sierra was asked to produce a bullet cannelured version, but they intially refused.

Nosler did not have any problems putting a cannelure on their 77 gr bullet. Black Hills Ammunition was approached to make a slightly modified version of these loads for combat use. A cannelure was specified, the bullets were to be crimped, and the load was to be up to military chamber pressures, with maximum safe velocity being desired. The primers were to be crimped and sealed, and of course, overall length had allow for loading in standard magazines.

The Marines (in conjunction with a large Federal LE agency) did extensive testing of this large experimental batch of BH loaded Nosler 77 gr cannelured OTM's in the Fall of 2002. It offered outstanding terminal performance out to the maximum test distance of 300 yards. They then ordered 1.1 million rounds of cannelured 77 gr OTM's via the existing Mk262 SOCOM contract (which did not specify a manufacturer) administered through Crane. The cannelured 77 gr load was designated Mk262 Mod 1, and the orginal Mk262 was re-designated Mk262 Mod 0.





According to one observer: "At this point bureaucracy, nepostism, and capitalism converged. Sierra realized they were about to lose a VERY LARGE contract and suddenly they agreed to make the 77 gr SMK with a cannelure. Crane pushed for Sierra to get the contract over Nosler, although the Nosler offered better terminal performance. On the other hand, in all fairness, the Sierra bullet was slightly more accurate out of government test barrels than the Nosler--both shoot nearly the same out of real rifles, such as the by then type classified Mk12 SPR."

Therefore, while a few hundred-thousand rounds of 77 gr Nosler OTM was manufactured and used primarily for testing, the cannelured 77 gr SMK was used in the the multi-million round contract for the Mk262 Mod 1.

Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk262 Mod1. As of April 2004, Mk 262 Mod1 has seen extensive use in Afghanistan and Iraq, in carbines with barrels as short as 10.5", and has proven to be very effective at ranges that M855 is woefully inadequate from the same weapons. It is also commonly used in the Army's "Special Purpose Rifles" (SPRs), which are accurized 18"-barreled rifles used by soldiers with additional combat marksmanship training in a squad sharp-shooter role.

azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

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Old 02-06-2006, 18:47   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

Team Sergeant
Hey TS;

He pulled it from the link I gave in my post on the first page (the ammo guru link)

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Old 02-06-2006, 19:15   #19
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Gene econ,

Remember in Oregon, we're enhanced, we get more money for training than many other NG units. We always get M855 ammunition when we go to the range, to zero and qualify. We always have plenty of ammunition, certainly enough in the company to qualify everyone, and enough left over to shoot your qualification again if you're feeling froggy. We typically use the Klamath Falls PD range, but in the future we may be shooting at Kingsley Field, ANG Base. (They are closing down our armory and moving us onto a new one on Kingsley Field.) We shoot.... a lot. It really is a good unit.

When we go the Thunder Ranch, the unit pays for the schooling, and we have to buy our own ammunition to shoot through the units weapons. We can only fire the infrangible stuff at TR. Typically we buy it individually from a company in Salt Lake City, UT. We have some very very good shots in our unit.

It would be great to have the new 77gr ammo on deployment, but if the S4 sections are like they have been in the past, we won't see it. It takes a supply guy with moxy to work a deal to get anything non-standard. And then we'd just be taking it from someone who really needs it, the PS's doing the dirty work abroad.
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Old 02-06-2006, 20:02   #20
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Black Hills Ammo is the source, but I am not sure whether they would ship you the MILSPEC Mk 262 Mod 1 5.56x45.

It is loaded a bit hotter than their civilian .223 77gr. BTHP-Match. The civvie load lacks the cannelure as well.

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Old 02-07-2006, 09:46   #21
azmg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
azmag,

I don't know where you pulled that from but I will tell you to place a "URL" above it or below it and you should also credit the author/source.

Team Sergeant

TS- My apologies, no intention of not crediting the author, material was sent by my local FFL (as an email) as an FYI on some questions I had asked.
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Old 03-01-2006, 01:21   #22
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[quote=DocGKR]Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

----------------------------------

For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the superb new milspec loaded Hornady 75 gr OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM--which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are adequate. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the LE .223 loads which most effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. The new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are the next best choices, but are not as quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance; with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

------------------------------

Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I prefer the Hornady 75 gr OTM in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice. For GP/Patrol I carry a 16” with a 3.5x TA11 ACOG (the variable 1-4x optics, like the S&B short dot are also great for this role) -- pick the right tool for the job. Given the ammo currently available via the supply system, in a military setting I would prefer mainly Mk262Mod1 and if available, a couple of mags of M955 AP for barriers and some M856 tracer (or TB74 dim trace) for marking targets.

As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement.

----------------------------

Remember the 6.8 x 43 mm SPC offers dramatically superior terminal performance compared to ALL existing 5.56 mm loads. Where 5.56 mm carbines may offer an advantage is when limited penetration through common intermediate barriers is desirable, for example, LE personnel performing entry in crowded urban environments. For those LE personnel who will need to punch through intermediate barriers or into vehicles, the 6.8 mm offers both superior penetration and incapacitation ability compared to 5.56 mm. Finally, keep in mind that 6.8 mm is more versatile and effective in short barreled carbines, as it does not suffer as much terminal performance decrement as 5.56 mm fired from short barrels.[/'quote]

Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:43   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.Franklin
Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.
1. This ain't the Tactical Forums.

2. Ask Doc what his real world personal shooting experience is, how many live targets he has personally engaged or examined, and what his actual profession is. He is neither a combat vet, or a forensic pathologist.

3. I would prefer not to have personal opinions from other sites cut and posted here. If you have personal experiences to share, put 'em up. If all you have is opinions from another web site, feel free to keep them to yourself.

TR
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Old 03-01-2006, 20:41   #24
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I couldnt find a smiley for sarcasm, so I left it to imagination. It is a good read nonetheless.
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Old 03-01-2006, 21:06   #25
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Originally Posted by N.Franklin
I couldnt find a smiley for sarcasm, so I left it to imagination. It is a good read nonetheless.
You're next "Smiley for Sarcasm" will likely be as a Banned User!!!

If you have not shot someone with it, don't bother attempting to pass on someone elses drivel, who hasn't really used it EITHER!!!

This is NOT an Air-Softer Site!!

In the words of my Brother,

Have a very SF Day!!!
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Old 03-03-2006, 21:42   #26
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[QUOTE=N.Franklin]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

----------------------------------

For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the superb new milspec loaded Hornady 75 gr OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM--which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are adequate. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

If routinely engaging vehicles, the LE .223 loads which most effectively penetrate automobiles are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. The new Hornady 60 gr “barrier penetration” JSP and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are the next best choices, but are not as quite as effective as the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claws against glass. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance; with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S.

------------------------------

Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I prefer the Hornady 75 gr OTM in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice. For GP/Patrol I carry a 16” with a 3.5x TA11 ACOG (the variable 1-4x optics, like the S&B short dot are also great for this role) -- pick the right tool for the job. Given the ammo currently available via the supply system, in a military setting I would prefer mainly Mk262Mod1 and if available, a couple of mags of M955 AP for barriers and some M856 tracer (or TB74 dim trace) for marking targets.

As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement.

----------------------------

Remember the 6.8 x 43 mm SPC offers dramatically superior terminal performance compared to ALL existing 5.56 mm loads. Where 5.56 mm carbines may offer an advantage is when limited penetration through common intermediate barriers is desirable, for example, LE personnel performing entry in crowded urban environments. For those LE personnel who will need to punch through intermediate barriers or into vehicles, the 6.8 mm offers both superior penetration and incapacitation ability compared to 5.56 mm. Finally, keep in mind that 6.8 mm is more versatile and effective in short barreled carbines, as it does not suffer as much terminal performance decrement as 5.56 mm fired from short barrels.[/'quote]

Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.
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Old 03-03-2006, 22:12   #27
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Sorry

Sorry guys, my post didn't indicate my reply.

Computer issues.

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Old 03-04-2006, 21:47   #28
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
1. This ain't the Tactical Forums.

2. Ask Doc what his real world personal shooting experience is, how many live targets he has personally engaged or examined, and what his actual profession is. He is neither a combat vet, or a forensic pathologist.

3. I would prefer not to have personal opinions from other sites cut and posted here. If you have personal experiences to share, put 'em up. If all you have is opinions from another web site, feel free to keep them to yourself.

TR
TR:

Is this 'Doc' guy the Naval Reserve Dentist by chance?

Fascinating post. I wonder who can remember where he has stored his three different types of ammo on his body armor when being shot at from under fifty yards? Or will he stop and change mags to ensure he is using the right type of ammo for the situation?

Very strange indeed.

Gene
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Old 03-05-2006, 10:36   #29
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Originally Posted by N.Franklin/
Any post by DocGKR should be considered a step down from God's voice when it comes to ammunition. Quote from the Tactical Forums.
I heard that this docgkr is a poser and only visits forums where he can fool the masses. god's voice, for christs sake you people are stupid.

n. franklin, post crap like this again and you will be banned. we do not allow air-softers to post on here and will not allow people to post third party bull shit on here. A dentist talking about the warrior mindset, and bullets you've got to be fooking kidding me, what an idiot.

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Old 03-05-2006, 11:23   #30
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Freakin' jello shooters.
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