Old 08-26-2009, 11:13   #46
Blitzzz (RIP)
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Looling at 118 ball recipes

I have three recipes tha I have researched and fount to be claiming the same as 118 ball. two are with the 175 gr Sierra HPBT and RL-15 and IMR 4895. the other is with the 173gr HPBTs of old and IMR 4064.
Any comment or other recipes welcome.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:44   #47
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SFO:

A Lee hand press with Lee dies and the Lee dipper kit?

My advise with the dipper is to use ball powders. The dippers don't go well with extruded or flake powders at all. Lee will give you a load chart with your dipper kit. It is for minimum loads so have a wooden dowel ready to hammer the bullets out of your pistol barrel when you get one stuck.

I say this from experience some thirty years ago when I started out with a Lee dipper kit. Three bullets stuck in the barrel of a S&W model 27 that were removed by the guys at Cumberland Knife and Gun on Bragg Blvd.

I got a scale, a real reloading press, a powder measure, powder scale, and some real reloading dies within seconds of those bullets getting pulled from that barrel. Never have had one stuck since.

In other words -- you are heading towards problems that guys here are advising you to consider.

Gene
Thank you. In the very least I will pick up some Winchester Ball Powder and a scale. If funds permit, possibly a Dillon 550b. It's substantially more expensive than what I was considering, but seems like a quality product for a relatively low price.
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Old 08-29-2009, 18:50   #48
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Originally Posted by Blitzzz View Post
I have three recipes tha I have researched and fount to be claiming the same as 118 ball. two are with the 175 gr Sierra HPBT and RL-15 and IMR 4895. the other is with the 173gr HPBTs of old and IMR 4064.
Any comment or other recipes welcome.
Blitzzz:

LC also put ball powder into the M-118 that used the 173 gr FMJ bullet. I believe that ball powder was used for most of the 60's, then extruded in the 70's and ball powder again in the 80's and 90's. What type? Hard to say but something like 748 Winchester although not quite the same.

Hard to say what type of extruded powder was used with the M-118 Match of the 1970's. A military grade of 4895 which may be more like 4064. I think that sometimes the Army used a commercial powder and others a military grade of powder.

Rick knows better the history of the M-118 LR. I think it started with commercial Reloader 15 and then morphed into a military grade of extruded powder but don't quote me on that. The initial lots of 118LR did not perform and since then it seems the Army has continually tried to find a solution -- just like they tried with 118 Match / SB.

If someone wants to duplicate a 118 LR load, find a load that pushes the bullet out of a 24" 10 turn twist barrel at about 2610 - 2620 fps. One thing I have found that is very consistent about the 80's - 90's 118 SB and the 118 LR is that both of them have a MV of from 2610 - 2620 fps depending on the lot and their SD's are around 12 fps which does indicate consistency in terms of interior ballistics.

All that said, a guy can't really go wrong with using Varget for the .308 shooting about any reasonabe bullet weight.

Gene
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Old 08-29-2009, 19:13   #49
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Thank you. In the very least I will pick up some Winchester Ball Powder and a scale. If funds permit, possibly a Dillon 550b. It's substantially more expensive than what I was considering, but seems like a quality product for a relatively low price.
SFO:

I advise you to take a look at the Lyman turret press kits at Midway. I have advised this kit for new reloaders on PS and other forums and those who have obtained such a kit have been satisfied. Dillon won't give you a powder scale and if you buy a Dillon, be prepared to have a machinist grind down the shell plate for your rifle loads. Also, the Dillon uses a charge bar in their measure that will restrict you to ball powders -- which you will regret.

This Lyman turret press will do what you want in a manner that will assure you of safe, reliable, and very accurate ammunition. The entire kit is about half the price of the Dillon you are looking at, and has every single thing you need to produce safe and precise rifle or pistol ammunition.

I do not advise you to use Lee equipment just yet. Blow your money on a full up Lee kit and you will regret your decision ten fold at your first range session.

Gene
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Old 08-29-2009, 20:06   #50
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Blitzzz - I'm using F210M primers and 41.6 gr. of IMR-4895 in LC90 cases to push a Sierra 175 BTHPM at 2610 fps. It holds a tight 10 ring at 600. I do a fair amount of case prep because it is military brass. Standard disclaimer - YMMV

SFO - I'm with GE on the Lee equipment. Don't scrimp. Buy quality the first time even if it seems more expensive and save money in the long run. Personally I recommend you look at an RCBS Rockchucker Master Kit. I've been using mine for 30+ years. Lyman is another venerable name/product; GE likes their equipment, I just upgraded to their 49th Reloading Handbook (that's the third edition I've purchased over the years).
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Old 08-29-2009, 20:41   #51
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Gene Econ, I'll take a look at the Lyman kits. I didn't know about those points regarding the Dillon presses - thank you for the heads up.

Peregrino, I believe our local Wal-Mart has an RCBS Rockchucker supreme kit for around 270 dollars.

I'm assuming by the advice given by you gentlemen that I can't go wrong with either.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:33   #52
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Blitzzz - I'm using F210M primers and 41.6 gr. of IMR-4895 in LC90 cases to push a Sierra 175 BTHPM at 2610 fps. It holds a tight 10 ring at 600. I do a fair amount of case prep because it is military brass. Standard disclaimer - YMMV

SFO - I'm with GE on the Lee equipment. Don't scrimp. Buy quality the first time even if it seems more expensive and save money in the long run. Personally I recommend you look at an RCBS Rockchucker Master Kit. I've been using mine for 30+ years. Lyman is another venerable name/product; GE likes their equipment, I just upgraded to their 49th Reloading Handbook (that's the third edition I've purchased over the years).
P.G:

He, he, he. The funny thing is that the only piece of Lyman gear I have left after these years is a stand for a powder measure! I had a Lyman turret many years ago and sold it. I have regretted that decision.

No, my advice to the various guys was based on me taking a close look at all of the various kits on the market -- RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding, Dillon, Hornady, and most likely a few others. I wrote down a listing of criteria with ratings on each piece of required equipment for reloading. I also rated them based on speed of loading as I really do hate handloading. So I looked at a number of different features and at least in terms of what is available in kit form today -- I found that one (not all) of the Lyman kits really did offer a bit more in terms of quality, durability, simplicity, and price.

So, no -- the decision wasn't made based on my personal likes. The gear I use doesn't come in kits and most likely is too expensive for guys who are starting out.

Gene
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Old 08-30-2009, 09:17   #53
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I like Lyman too. I have had several Rockchuckers but always sold them off and kept my Orange crusher (Lyman).

As Gene mentioned about Lee, Lee does make a few cost effective items. One needs to know what they are.
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Old 08-30-2009, 22:33   #54
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I'm just sold on Lee

I have a Hornady and a Lee turrent.
I load 9 different Calabers and rarely use the Hornady press. It's a single and I now only keep a LEE universal expander in it. All the other rounds are done on the LEE.
Lee is probably the least expensive of the bunch, but loads Match of you want.
I do own other brand pieces of equipment. Dillon Scale, RCBS powder dispenser, Lymam case trimer, etc.
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Last edited by Blitzzz (RIP); 08-31-2009 at 10:41.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:12   #55
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Consider AA 2520 for .308, and H322 for both .308 and .223. Both are ball powders and have provided good results. Haven't tried Varget, but it receives good report from all quarters.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A...%20version.pdf
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Old 08-31-2009, 13:11   #56
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One of the most reliable book on reloading data, when looking for the special load is, Ken Water's Pet Loads. Really good starting points. Not sure if there is information on the newly developed cartridges.
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Old 08-31-2009, 20:41   #57
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Consider AA 2520 for .308, and H322 for both .308 and .223. Both are ball powders and have provided good results. Haven't tried Varget, but it receives good report from all quarters.
IC:

Consider Varget for the .308 with almost any bullet but particularly those that are between 150 and 180 grains.

You will find it to be more consistent than any ball powder made today IMHO. And yes, I shoot quite a bit of 2520, TAC, and H-335 (not H-332) but only in small capacity cases where powder density is a factor.

Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955
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Old 08-31-2009, 21:02   #58
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IC:

Consider Varget for the .308 with almost any bullet but particularly those that are between 150 and 180 grains.

You will find it to be more consistent than any ball powder made today IMHO. And yes, I shoot quite a bit of 2520, TAC, and H-335 (not H-332) but only in small capacity cases where powder density is a factor.

Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955
Gene - Got to agree with you about the Varget for .308 and .223 though I've pretty much completed the switch to RL-15 for all my long range match ammo. Either one is worth the extra effort required to weigh each charge. I still use the ball powders [WW748 and BL-C(2) right now] for anything 300m and under, it's just easier and the targets are big enough that .25 moa isn't worth worrying about.
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Old 08-31-2009, 22:17   #59
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IC:

Consider Varget....
Give it a try and I doubt you will go back to the ball powders for the .308 capacity cases or larger.

LR1955
I am behind the times.


I'll try it!
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:13   #60
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Gene - Got to agree with you about the Varget for .308 and .223 though I've pretty much completed the switch to RL-15 for all my long range match ammo. Either one is worth the extra effort required to weigh each charge. I still use the ball powders [WW748 and BL-C(2) right now] for anything 300m and under, it's just easier and the targets are big enough that .25 moa isn't worth worrying about.


P.G.:

Weigh each charge? He, he, he.

Sometime just throw the charges into the case and shoot them at 600. All things considered -- I bet you will not see any difference in scores. Of course you need a decent powder measure but with Varget you will be + - .2 grains instead of + - .1 grain when you individually weigh charges.

I probably wouldn't try that with 4064. He, he, he.

Gene
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