Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > Special Forces Weapons > Ammo Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2009, 15:27   #1
swatsurgeon
Guerrilla Chief
 
swatsurgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
Bullet Identifcation

Had a case last night that operatively had devastating injuries due to the attached bullet....anyone know the type/manufacturer of this one...
not one I have dealt with before.
It is not a HST, SXT or PMC Star. Any assistance would be appreciated.

ss
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OR bullet2_3_09.jpg (95.5 KB, 208 views)
File Type: jpg OR bullet 3_09.jpg (88.9 KB, 217 views)
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )

Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.

The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
swatsurgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 16:43   #2
CSB
Quiet Professional
 
CSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 1,102
The fully enclosed base should narrow it down, check some of these out (click on the photograph to enlarge):

http://frag.110mb.com/


Item Number 9 looks close, note the groove in the center of each wedge of expansion. And a gold dot in the center.

Do you have a weight?

Last edited by CSB; 03-05-2009 at 16:48.
CSB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 16:46   #3
longrange1947
Quiet Professional
 
longrange1947's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Fayetteville NC
Posts: 3,533
I would guess Black Talon. I thought it had been banned.
__________________
Hold Hard guys

Rick B.

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing it is great on a hamburger but not so great sticking one up your ass.

Author - Richard.

Experience is what you get right after you need it.

Author unknown.
longrange1947 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 17:02   #4
Ambush Master
Quiet Professional
 
Ambush Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,714
It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin
__________________
Martin sends.
Ambush Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 18:04   #5
HOLLiS
Area Commander
 
HOLLiS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet
Posts: 1,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambush Master View Post
It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin
That is what I am thinking, I have some of those.
HOLLiS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 19:22   #6
swatsurgeon
Guerrilla Chief
 
swatsurgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
I finally found the detective today that worked the case. Speer ammo and judging by pictures as well as one from my collection of 6 recovered from bodies (patients), I guess it is a gold dot.
None of my previously recovered ones openned like this one...the leaves/petals usually bend back around the bullet and haven't remained on a horizontal plane. The detective said he'd call me back after he gets the bullets out of the gun...his info was based on the case recovered at the scene that said 9mm speer.
Typical of wound ballistics, bullets react differently in different tissues NOT as gel demonstrates they'll do in tissue simulant.
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )

Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.

The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
swatsurgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 19:24   #7
swatsurgeon
Guerrilla Chief
 
swatsurgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1947 View Post
I would guess Black Talon. I thought it had been banned.
the talons and sxt's have a separation plane between jacket and core...this round did not
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )

Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.

The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
swatsurgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 19:32   #8
JJ_BPK
Quiet Professional
 
JJ_BPK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NOVA
Posts: 10,153
I'm wondering if it didn't pass thru a winter jacket with a lot of polyester fill.
Slowed it down so it didn't get a chance to wrap the star "wings" back to the back.

Must have been a spectacular hole...
__________________
Go raibh tú leathuair ar Neamh sula mbeadh a fhios ag an diabhal go bhfuil tú marbh

"May you be a half hour in heaven before the devil knows you’re dead"
JJ_BPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 19:33   #9
Karl.Masters
Quiet Professional
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
Posts: 203
SS,

In CSB's link there is also a view of the bases, your cupped base projectile tracks to the Speer #53617/#10:

http://frag.110mb.com/images/All.Sam...UpSideDown.jpg
Karl.Masters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 19:49   #10
Team Sergeant
Quiet Professional
 
Team Sergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambush Master View Post
It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin
It sure would be easier to identify if all that red stuff were not on there.....

Also, it might or might not be one of the same rounds that will be found in the remaining mag, tell the det. to make sure he checks the head stamp on the spent casing to compare.
__________________
"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
Team Sergeant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 20:19   #11
Ambush Master
Quiet Professional
 
Ambush Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
I'm wondering if it didn't pass thru a winter jacket with a lot of polyester fill.
Slowed it down so it didn't get a chance to wrap the star "wings" back to the back.

Must have been a spectacular hole...

If not through a jacket, any other obstacle or at what range was the engagement?? On the Speer site, one of the things that they say can be found here:

http://le.atk.com/general/speerprodu...n/GoldDot.aspx

The pro-jo is designed to maintain it's performance even when fired through a variety of barriers!! I agree, it looks like it was slowed down.
__________________
Martin sends.
Ambush Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 20:23   #12
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,461
I agree, it is a Gold Dot.

Hollow points are designed to function and expand within a limited velocity range. Too slow, and it may not open fully, and strangely enough, may penetrate further than the same projo at a faster velocity. The designers want the bullet to operate across the broadest range possible, but there is not too much need for a pistol JHP to function at more than 100 meters, or a high velocity hunting or varmint round to function at 10 meters, so they compromise. The pistol rounds are the most sensitive, due to their generally slower velocity and more limited range. A specific defensive JHP pistol bullet is intended to launch from a certain barrel length (say 5") at 1000 fps. It can be produced with the ability to function properly across a 300 fps velocity range. If it launches at 1000 fps MV, and slows down to 700 fps by 75 meters, then assuming acceptable accuracy, that becomes the effective range of that round, in that weapon. A hit by that bullet at the center of its intended velocity range should be the most reliable and most destructive, with optimum expansion and penetration. There is no need for the bullet to function and expand properly at 1100 fps, so it starts working (expanding) at 700 fps, reaches its optimum expansion and penetration at 850 fps, and begins to fragment, lose integrity, and underpenetrate at velocities above 1000 fps. Below 700 fps, it functions as a ball round, with little or no expansion. This means that the round will have a more limited effective range from a shorter barreled weapon, like a 3" barrel rather than a 5". Conversely, if someone makes a 16" barreled carbine for our round, the range of maximum effectiveness may actually not start till 75 meters and end at 150 meters. The results of impacts outside that optimum range will be less effective and more prone to over (or under) penetration and irregular performance with regards to expansion.

Obviously, shot placement remains the key to the above issues. Not too many people walking off headshots, regardless of the performance parameters and design of the bullet. Environmental factors like temperature, clothing or intermediate barriers, location of impact into various tissues and structures of the body etc. affect performance as well.

I would say that in the case above, the round was at its sweet point on impact and functioned exactly (and nearly perfectly) as the designer intended.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2017
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 20:42   #13
Peregrino
Quiet Professional
 
Peregrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Occupied Pineland
Posts: 4,643
Just reinforces the decision I made years ago (after the BS about the Black Talons exploded) to use Gold Dots exclusively for my "social" rounds. Hopefully this came out of a "goblin"?
__________________
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

~ Marcus Tullius Cicero (42B.C)
Peregrino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 21:52   #14
Ken Brock
Redneck Knifemaker
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 174
I would say it's a Gold Dot but not a +P

The +P versions I've seen fold back onto themselves like a ball
Ken Brock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 09:11   #15
Razor
Quiet Professional
 
Razor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,361
Expanded as perfectly as it is, I can't imagine it hit much bone. That must have seriously tore up some gut.
Razor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:59.



Copyright 2004-2019 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies