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Old 04-11-2008, 11:16   #1
swatsurgeon
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Good Shot, Wrong Ammo?

A case of appropriate shot placement (we don't know...does anyone have this info?) and desired effects not achieved or bad shot placement and expected results. Wonder how many steps he would take if LeMas was used with same shot placement??
Dying 7 hours later means a really poor shot OR the ammo did not perform as GEL demonstrated it would, as if you could corrolate it to living tissue.

Article in Denver Post

CU officer cleared in hospital shooting
By Tom McGhee
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 04/10/2008 12:55:22 PM MDT


Terrance Baughman (Brian Brainerd, The Denver Post)A Boulder district attorney's investigation has found a police officer who shot and killed a man threatening to blow up a Boulder hospital acted properly.

Terrance Ashley Baughman, 32, sealed his fate when he got up from a wheelchair in a vestibule and walked into the lobby of Boulder Community Hospital holding what he said was a bomb.

His attempt to move into the hospital followed a period of four hours in which police tried to talk him into surrendering.

The team's orders: attempt to stop the man by firing non-lethal projectiles at him.

Two officers fired four non-lethal rounds. "Baughman doubled at the waist but did not go to the ground," according to the report.

He moved back into the lobby headed toward three police officers. Two more non lethal rounds exploded from the muzzles of police guns.

University of Colorado police Cpl. Matt DeLaria fired a single .308 caliber slug from his Remington 700 sniper rifle into Baughman.

He returned to vestibule and collapsed. Baughman died seven hours later.


No explosives were found.

DeLaria has returned to work after being placed on administrative leave pending the results of the investigation.

Baughman, who turned over a sheaf of papers containing a rambling anti-government screed to officers before he was shot, arrived at the hospital at about 8:50 a.m. on March 17.

"I need you to pay attention to me clearly. I have a detonator and I'm sitting next to an oxygen tank," he said in a 911 call to Boulder PD communications.

Police found him sitting in a wheelchair facing the interior of the hospital.

"Officers observed Mr. Baughman to be sitting in a wheelchair with a green oxygen tank. He also had a black computer case and was holding a red case ... in his lap. The red case was attached to his hand by some type of cord. He told the officers that he had a bomb," the review said.

"This is a pressure switch connected with wire to the oxygen tank," Baughman screamed. "There's shrapnel, it'll go everywhere. If you mess with me I'll blow it."

Patients and hospital employees were moved to safety and a standoff began.

Baughman had an extensive criminal history including assault, weapon possession, arson, burglary and robbery and had a record in Texas, Nevada, South Carolina, Florida, Oklahoma and Colorado, according to the report.

During the standoff, police consulted a psychiatrist who knew Baughman. They learned that Baughman was a sociopath whose threats should be taken seriously, and that he had stopped taking medication for his mental problems, the report said.

"At about 1 p.m. Baughman's demeanor changed from calm to agitated. On the tape recording Baughman can be heard to state "I can start moving over there and you guys can start shooting me ... if you guys are going to start busting caps you should do it real soon."

Tom McGhee: (303)954-1671 or tmcghee@denverpost.com


ss
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Old 04-11-2008, 12:45   #2
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Sniper Rifle in CQ? Non lethal force in this scenario? Subject's reactions after being shot seems to indicate a torso shot rather than a head shot. To walk and survive for 7 hours with a head shot does not seem likely, at first blush. This is one for NTOA debrief!
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Old 04-11-2008, 14:51   #3
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This is one for NTOA debrief!
I agree, I'll be interested to read the tactical debrief on it. The shot placement goes against all of the accepted practices of dealing with a "man with a bomb" call.
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Old 04-11-2008, 14:58   #4
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I'm glad it was not just me wondering about that..... only one shot for instant incapacitation that "prevents" the contaction of enough muscle groups to push the button on his detonator, i.e., brain stem. Even a through and through heart shot gives him 10-15 seconds of voluntary actions.

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'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )

Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.

The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)

Last edited by swatsurgeon; 04-11-2008 at 15:01.
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Old 04-11-2008, 18:15   #5
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Ah but of course

“…when a BMT round strikes soft tissue in a chest cavity, the resulting hydrostatic shock is so severe it destroys brain tissue mass”.
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Old 04-11-2008, 21:45   #6
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Ah but of course

“…when a BMT round strikes soft tissue in a chest cavity, the resulting hydrostatic shock is so severe it destroys brain tissue mass”.
I'm missing something. BMT???? Though I do believe a .50 BMG COM in the torso would probably produce results resembling an instant incapacitation shot (though the mechanism might differ ). FWIW I don't understand the TTPs used either. Unless it was the only available option (and the threat from any presumed explosive device was minimal), torso shots on a "man with bomb" make no sense.
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Old 04-11-2008, 22:17   #7
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Ah but of course

“…when a BMT round strikes soft tissue in a chest cavity, the resulting hydrostatic shock is so severe it destroys brain tissue mass”.
Having actually seen the LeMas fired into a couple of dozen live tissue patients, say what you will, but unless you can walk around with everything pretty much shredded in an 8"-12" radius, I think it would shut you down pretty quickly. Not going to try and explain the mechanism.

Agree that the SOP should have been headshot as soon as the green light was given.

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Old 04-12-2008, 06:06   #8
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Bad Dope dialed in on the gun? Didnt account for the angle? Wind Shear?

As to the ammo any low weight bullet loaded to near proof round energy will give you shredding.

Im guessing bad dope, my 700 is still set on 1K settings from the last match. Could be something similar with the police marksman.
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Old 04-12-2008, 07:22   #9
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Or he slapped the shit out of the trigger and pulled his shot.
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Old 04-12-2008, 08:20   #10
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Bad Dope dialed in on the gun? Didnt account for the angle? Wind Shear?

As to the ammo any low weight bullet loaded to near proof round energy will give you shredding.

Im guessing bad dope, my 700 is still set on 1K settings from the last match. Could be something similar with the police marksman.

Angle and wind shear???? You jest right??? 99% of all LEO shots are 100m or less, angle & wind are going to have a near zero effect at those ranges. Even from 200m there would be little effect on a .308 round.

And unless it was a glancing blow, a head shot from a .308 at less than 100 meters would have removed most of his head.

I'd also like to see the after action report.

IMO any individual "threatening" with a bomb should be dealt with immediately and unsympathetically.

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Old 04-12-2008, 10:38   #11
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As to the ammo any low weight bullet loaded to near proof round energy will give you shredding.
Then why aren't more manufacturers doing it if its so easy?
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Old 04-12-2008, 14:42   #12
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Ah but of course

“…when a BMT round strikes soft tissue in a chest cavity, the resulting hydrostatic shock is so severe it destroys brain tissue mass”.
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Old 04-12-2008, 15:11   #13
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Need the exact trajectory, gents (including any intervening materials, no matter how trivial).
Speculation will reign supreme until that is known...and even when it IS known, it may continue still
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Old 04-12-2008, 15:26   #14
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Then why aren't more manufacturers doing it if its so easy?
An excellent question.

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Old 04-14-2008, 15:19   #15
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I just read a follow up article. He was shot in the chest, 7-8 hrs of surgery...means not a heart shot most likely.

ss
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'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )

Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.

The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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