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Old 07-26-2005, 03:39   #31
Molon Labe
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Cadets in SFAS

Molon Labe

Last edited by Molon Labe; 07-26-2005 at 08:42.
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:20   #32
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Good for you, cadet.

Ranger School was once open to cadets, despite the recycle issue. And it was a darn good experience for cadets as well... pass or fail.
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:09   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
I can't explain to you the feeling of building a team out of individuals
give it a try...i'm listening...i am interested in hearing how that happens...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
For the QPs, while you may still disagree, I only respectfully ask that you be mindful who you disagree to.
why should i be mindful of whom i may disagree with...? i find that a rather curious statement...were i of a mind, i might take offense to that comment...
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:16   #34
The Reaper
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Molon Labe:

I hear a lot about how beneficial it was for you. Memememe. That is not the sound of a team member.

What did SF get out of it?

I thought that SFAS stood for Special Forces Assessment and Selection. When will you all be joining the force, if ever? This course is not designed to educate or train, the intent of SFAS is to assess and select qualified soldiers with the potential for SF training and send them to the SFQC. Yet you and your comrades were not sent there for that purpose.

What would you tell the 8 ODAs that are in the box without a full complement of team members and will not get them for a little while longer? Why are their replacements late? Because their slots to SFAS were given to cadets taking the course for summer sport and to "lead senior NCOs and even commissioned officers"?

I guess we could let you cadets have a platoon in Iraq for 30 days as well. That would be good leadership training for YOU. What about the people going through with you? I was out there while you were going through. This experimentation is always fun for the leader. I am not sure that many "senior NCOs and commissioned officers" find it entertaining to be the training aid for a cadet. The commander and 1SG were told they had to take you. They did not have a choice. I am pretty sure that they would have rather had soldiers or actual officers to select and assess.

The only opportunity? What happened to Airborne, Ranger, Air Assault, or the CTLT programs? So SWCS is solely responsible for entertaining a bunch of kids on summer break? What is next, skydiving lessons for you at MFF School?

What happens when a female cadet files a complaint that this is a summer training opportunity which she is being denied and it will adversely affect her career if she is not permitted to attend? Will we have female cadets in SFAS?

While you are entitled to your opinion, do not be dropping SF personnel names on this board again. Finally, as far as your request that I "be mindful who you disagree to", as an SF officer, I will make my opinion known whenever I am asked for it, and your concerns for summer entertainment for yourself and your fellow cadets will take a back seat to my concerns for my SF brothers.

Have a very SF day.

TR
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De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2017
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:19   #35
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Molon Labe, the important thing for you to take away from this is a realization that you simply don't know what you don't know. As a cadet, I would have given my left nut to attend SFAS, because it is a great challenge and let's a cadet 'put the 'M' in USMA' after a long, demanding academic year. I now realize that while it would have been good for me, it would not have been good for the Army as a whole, and the bottom line is that your service is not for you, but the Army; don't ever forget that. Do cadets still have the opportunity to attend the Sapper Leader Course? That's a great small unit leader training course that would actually benefit both you (from the leadership and SUT skills you'd learn) and your future soldiers (due to the leadership and self-awareness you'd gain). How about the Mountain Warfare Course run by the VTARNG? That's an excellent introductory course to the military application of mountaineering, and if you didn't notice, there are a few significant terrain features in Afghanistan. As a vast majority of the regular Army has little to no mountaineering training, the skills you could learn there would make you a valuable asset to your unit. If you are truly concerned about learning to be a good combat leader, are you a member of the Infantry Tactics Club? The Orienteering Club? Are you on your company's Sandhurst team every year? There are many, many opportunities at USMA to learn skills to make you a better leader without needing to attend a specialized assessment and selection course for a unit to which you can't even begin to apply for at least four years from now. This is of course assuming you even decide to apply, and that your packet is accepted (given the number of officer applicants, your acceptance is far from a sure thing). A great deal can change in four years, to include the decision to allow your SFAS to count. Don't be too presumptuous about what will be reality in four years.

In short, be glad you were able to attend SFAS, assume that it was a good training experience for when you'll have to do it again (if you're even afforded the opportunity), and stop to consider exactly who you're lecturing here before you get carried away in youthful exuberance. This is an excellent lesson in knowing your audience; if you remember it, it will serve you well in your military career.
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Old 07-26-2005, 14:26   #36
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
So SWCS is solely responsible for entertaining a bunch of kids on summer break? What is next, skydiving lessons for you at MFF School?

TR
We shut that down.

Won't go into details but it was CRACK. PURE CRACK.

JM SENDS.
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Old 07-26-2005, 14:32   #37
Jack Moroney (RIP)
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Good for you, cadet.

Ranger School was once open to cadets, despite the recycle issue. And it was a darn good experience for cadets as well... pass or fail.
Oh please, this was a hand holding experience at best. Standards were adjusted to meet other ROTC requirements and for the most part many of the cadets were ill prepared to even understand what this was all about. The worst thing I saw from this effort was that they came back to ROTC programs thinking that leadership was defined by how loud you could yell and how many push ups you could make the underclassmen do. This program was not an incentive it was a command directed outward bound experience with blanks. While some cadets had the benefit of good preparation and actually came away with some requisite skills associated with a Ranger School Graduate, more came away with time ill spent in the preparation for service as commissioned officers where those skills might have been actually of some benefit. The Army lost a lot of good slots for active duty soldiers who could have actually benefited from this training and I have to totally agree with both TR and Razor's comments on SFAS.

Jack Moroney
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Old 07-26-2005, 17:05   #38
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Molon Labe,

I think the "O's" covered everything fairly well. Your situational awareness and name dropping are two areas you need work on.

We all make mistakes. I apologized for one today in front of everybody affected. You should follow that advice.

You're a Cadet. Learn from this situation and do the right thing.

Doc
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Old 07-26-2005, 19:50   #39
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Quote:
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Oh please, this was a hand holding experience at best. Standards were adjusted to meet other ROTC requirements and for the most part many of the cadets were ill prepared to even understand what this was all about. The worst thing I saw from this effort was that they came back to ROTC programs thinking that leadership was defined by how loud you could yell and how many push ups you could make the underclassmen do. This program was not an incentive it was a command directed outward bound experience with blanks. While some cadets had the benefit of good preparation and actually came away with some requisite skills associated with a Ranger School Graduate, more came away with time ill spent in the preparation for service as commissioned officers where those skills might have been actually of some benefit. The Army lost a lot of good slots for active duty soldiers who could have actually benefited from this training and I have to totally agree with both TR and Razor's comments on SFAS.

Jack Moroney

Not my experience. And the ROTC detachment I was at sent more cadets to Ranger School than any other ROTC detachment in the nation during the 3 years period that it was open while I was a cadet (the opportunity was closed just before I would have attended along with 3 other cadets). Not one of the BGSU graduates was a yeller. And those who failed were pretty good leaders as well. One of the graduates even became a Chaplin.
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Old 07-26-2005, 19:59   #40
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Not my experience. And the ROTC detachment I was at sent more cadets to Ranger School than any other ROTC detachment in the nation during the 3 years period that it was open while I was a cadet (the opportunity was closed just before I would have attended along with 3 other cadets). Not one of the BGSU graduates was a yeller. And those who failed were pretty good leaders as well. One of the graduates even became a Chaplin.
That is good to hear. But when I walked the lanes with them and saw the adjustments required to the program, regardless of what you think was produced it was not the same as a troop that wentthrough the regular program. One of the reasons why it was closed was my after action report to the ROTC folks which was substantiated by others that had observed the same problems. So if you missed out as a ROTC cadet quess you can blame me and a host of others that did not share your experience.
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Old 07-26-2005, 20:19   #41
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That is good to hear. But when I walked the lanes with them and saw the adjustments required to the program, regardless of what you think was produced it was not the same as a troop that wentthrough the regular program. One of the reasons why it was closed was my after action report to the ROTC folks which was substantiated by others that had observed the same problems. So if you missed out as a ROTC cadet quess you can blame me and a host of others that did not share your experience.

Did you write your report in 1978? Or later? I understand that it was reopened to cadets after I was commissioned and then closed again.

Btw, I think the reason that BGSU was successful at sending Cadets to Ranger (and also had a reputation at FT Lewis of sending well prepared cadets) was because of the efforts of certain cadre, particularly two Infantry Officers and two Special Forces NCOs.

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Old 07-26-2005, 22:13   #42
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Personally, I feel its wrong the cadets even have the chance for any of the aboved schools, when its so hard for Ad and National guard soldiers to try to get those slots(due to Mos and available slots per units). People who are already serving and could use the skills should have prority for them not some Civillian on school break.

just my .02
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:47   #43
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Old 07-27-2005, 07:32   #44
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Sir, I apologize for asking again, but I'm confused. These are physicians who are in the middle of residency training? or completed residency for their first utilization tour? I'm still getting the negative on even beginning the SF training as a resident O-3.
Physicians who are assigned to USASOC or who wish to be. I would assume that those assigned to an actual SF Group have the highest likelihood of attending.

Those physicians would be O-3s.

IIRC, they have to attend SERE before SFAS.

Again, the USASOC Surgeon could explain the policy to you.

Basically, can't get to an SFG, no real need for the training.

TR
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