Old 01-31-2011, 21:12   #1
Scimitar
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12W (Carpenter) Skill Info

Hello all,

Haven't posted for a while but I'm looking into hiring some ETSed Army guys into some carpentry positions in my company.

Wondering if anyone could suggest where I can find some skill level explanations.

i.e. 12W10; 12W20; 12W30 type descriptions.

Any help appreciated, just trying to get a feel for actual skill sets and competencies.

Thanks

Scimitar
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Old 01-31-2011, 21:29   #2
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Wondering if anyone could suggest where I can find some skill level explanations.

i.e. 12W10; 12W20; 12W30 type descriptions.

Any help appreciated, just trying to get a feel for actual skill sets and competencies.
It's hard to tell...as a 12A1P, I was a company commander's radio operator...was I a competent combat engineer? I passed my pro pay test when it came up...what was my experience as a combat engineer? "Alpha two-zero this is foxtrot four-one bravo, SITREP, over..."
Our cooks were 12A1P, our mechanics were 12B1P...(old MOS codes)...

http://www.us-army-info.com/pages/mos/skills.html

After I made E5, I was moved to a line squad as demolitions specialist, then assistant squad leader...in all honesty, as a PFC and SP4, I talked on the radio and worked on a jeep...even after training for demolitions in the Skill Development Base (an late Vietnam era program for specific skills), when I got to the unit, I was assigned to a duty position based on the needs of the unit...
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Old 02-01-2011, 00:29   #3
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Thanks Steve,

I found the same website. Hoping for something 12W specific.

Sean
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:35   #4
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For a few years engineers were 21CMF but appear to be back to 12CMF. From site listed by lksteve:

Major Duties: The carpentry and masonry specialist performs general heavy carpentry, structural steel, and masonry duties, to include fabrication, erection, maintenance, and repair of rigging devices, trusses, and other structural assemblies. Duties for MOS 21W at each level of skill are:

* Skill Levels
o Skill Level 1 MOSC 21W1O. Employs basic carpentry and masonry skills. Assists in building layout, framing, sheathing, fabrication and roofing structures. Assists in erection of rough timber structures. Reads and interprets drawings, plans and specifications. Repairs and renovates all types of structures and erects prefabricated buildings. Constructs concrete form work for slabs, walls, and columns. Assists in performance of combat engineer missions, Reserve Components (RC) assists in sawmill set up and operation.

o Skill Level 2 MOSC 21W2O. Interprets construction drawings and blueprints. Prepares building layout. Constructs wooden or concrete foundation and erects building framework. Installs flooring, walls, partitions, siding, roofing, doors, windows, stairs, and interior finishing. Erects prefabricated and pre-engineered metal structures. Applies proper concrete curing methods. Directs operational maintenance on assigned equipment. Reserve Components perform millwright, head saw operator, and edger functions during sawmill operations.

x/S
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Old 02-01-2011, 20:23   #5
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Ah, great stuff Squid, damn those MOS changes.

Thanks

Sean
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"Malo mori quam fiedari"
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-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

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Old 02-01-2011, 21:07   #6
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OK next question. Been away from USAREC for too long.

From memory the skill MOSC tends to be lined with Rank
10 = E1 - E4
20 = E5
30 = E6
40 = E7
50 = E8-9

Sound right?

Next, from memory there's some sort of practical promotion test isn't there. Much like the Combat MOSs.

Can anyone enlighten? The scope of skill is not too bad, but is there some minial quality requirement. Might just need to line some suckers up and see what they can throw out?

Wonder if I can find a 12W WLC or BNCO course description around here somewhere, perhaps ATARRS?

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"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men! Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for power equal to your tasks."
-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam fiedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
"Be strong! Drive-on!"
Maori saying

Last edited by Scimitar; 02-01-2011 at 21:10.
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Old 02-01-2011, 22:53   #7
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Sound right?
Sounds right to me...

Quote:
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Might just need to line some suckers up and see what they can throw out?
I would be loathe to tell you how to run your business, but I believe I'd have to see some sort of physical evidence or administer some sort of practical test as part of the hiring process...when I interview folks for employment as a surveyor, I usually leave a data collector on the table in the interview room...if the prospect is going through the software when I walk in, it's usually a good sign...
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Old 02-02-2011, 13:08   #8
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No no, lksteve all advice welcome.

Yes, I agree on the practical test.

Just hoping to find some sort of idea on qualitative ability to provide us with a ball park of what can be expected from let's say an E5 12W(21W) with say 4-5 years TIS and of course the 12W20 MOSC rating.

Now this is where I wonder into unknown territory. From memory BNCOC has a skill component in line with your MOS. If so, where can I get a hold of that test, that'll give me the idea of qualitative AND quantitative skills.

Cheers

S
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-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam fiedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
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Old 02-02-2011, 16:46   #9
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No no, lksteve all advice welcome.

Yes, I agree on the practical test.

Just hoping to find some sort of idea on qualitative ability to provide us with a ball park of what can be expected from let's say an E5 12W(21W) with say 4-5 years TIS and of course the 12W20 MOSC rating.

Now this is where I wonder into unknown territory. From memory BNCOC has a skill component in line with your MOS. If so, where can I get a hold of that test, that'll give me the idea of qualitative AND quantitative skills.

Cheers

S
My dad has over 50 yrs experience as a carpenter. As a foreman and super he has hired and fired guys. You can always give guys a shot and when they don't preform at the appropriate level for the job you could let them go. I've even been fired by my old man once or twice for not working as hard as he thought i should.
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Old 02-02-2011, 18:25   #10
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lol Cobra, I too have been fired by my old man once or twice as a kid. Funny how that brings a smile to my face.

Hey another question here, wanted to ask here so as not to look too dumb to the ACAP rep.

When a soldier applies for a job I assume as an employer I can ask for some proof of service record, disciplinary action, rank advancement, stuff to show attitude, character, and general aptitude.

What would be OK to ask for and what's the form called. I have a few DD codes rolling around in my head but...

Cheers

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"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men! Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for power equal to your tasks."
-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam fiedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
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Old 02-02-2011, 18:44   #11
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When a soldier applies for a job I assume as an employer I can ask for some proof of service record, disciplinary action, rank advancement, stuff to show attitude, character, and general aptitude.

What would be OK to ask for and what's the form called. I have a few DD codes rolling around in my head but...
DD Form 214, Certificate of of Release or Discharge from Active Duty...it will show the nature of service as well as the military training completed during the members term of service, indicate the rank at which the member was separated and the duty MOS...
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Old 02-02-2011, 20:44   #12
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DD Form 214, Certificate of of Release or Discharge from Active Duty...it will show the nature of service as well as the military training completed during the members term of service, indicate the rank at which the member was separated and the duty MOS...
Thanks lksteve,

Hoping for a little more....? Any ideas, essentially a military resume, anyway I can source disciplinary actions, review notes, promotion dates?

Trying to get the information every employer dreams of and the Army has it all stored away..... :-)

May just be impolite to ask....?

S
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-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam fiedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
"Be strong! Drive-on!"
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Old 02-02-2011, 20:59   #13
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Any ideas, essentially a military resume, anyway I can source disciplinary actions, review notes, promotion dates?May just be impolite to ask....?
You want alot of information for a carpenter...you can ask, the individual is asking you for a job...ask for references, etc...DA Form 2 (it used to be anyway) had a synopsis of promotions, etc...I can't recall if disciplinary actions were listed or not...no review notes...but it did list promotions and assignments...

I have to ask...don't you trust your experience in this? I've hired and fired folks with less information than you want...at some point, your experience and ability to read people has to be more important than paper...and the fact that a guy had an Article 15 for doing something stupid as a young buck private shouldn't be held against him...when I commanded a company, some of my peers would give a guy an Article 15 for looking cross-ways at them...

Sorry, hoss, but it sounds to me like you're trying to cover your ass with his paper...MOO, YMMV...
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Old 02-02-2011, 21:08   #14
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Hey lksteve,

Don't mind ya saying it.

Guess it's a mix of loving the fact I can get more from a previous employer then a "yes we employed him" and the fact that this is my first technical hire in the US.

Technical hires always make me a little more picky. Not my area of expertise see.

Shit most definitely works different here.

Appreciate the pull-up.

Cheers

S
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"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men! Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for power equal to your tasks."
-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam fiedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
"Be strong! Drive-on!"
Maori saying
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Old 02-02-2011, 21:12   #15
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Technical hires always make me a little more picky. Not my area of expertise see.
I'd find someone to help interview your technical hires...obviously, you don't supervise carpenters...at least, I hope not...
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