Old 02-04-2010, 10:27   #31
Shar
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You have them trained how to call 911? Rather than trying to get them to your room, look where they can hide in thier room, back of a closet, under the bed, that sort of thing.
All 3 do know how to call 911, but none of them have phones in their rooms and I'd highly doubt they would know there was a problem unless someone woke them up. It's the "alerting them to danger" when it's just me in the house that I can't figure out. I'm curious to see what happens if the house alarm goes off and they are asleep. It hasn't happened before, but I might make a drill out of it. We've tried it with the fire alarm and they don't budge. Studies have shown that kids need the voice fire alarms that basically shout at you. It is on the list of things to get, but I do have a plan for getting them out should a fire happen and they aren't ever home alone at night without an adult.

Me vs. the intruder leaves no one to deal with the kids. And if I can't defeat the intruder, that leaves the intruder vs. the kids and that isn't acceptable.

I do have a particularly vigilant neighbor across the street and we keep the exterior of the house lit well. As others have noted, I would hope I've done enough at this point to deter someone from thinking my house is a good target but I'd like to and plan on doing more.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:28   #32
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Wow. I can't imagine the life choices that would make you as a particular person a target. If you have and that's your fear, change your life.
If you check craigepo's profile, you'll see he is a judge.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:35   #33
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If you check craigepo's profile, you'll see he is a judge.
Stepped on it twice in one day. I should have checked the profile first.

I can understand his worry and thank God for his service as a judge.
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Old 02-04-2010, 13:14   #34
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REAPER, awesome topic and it gets a man to thinking… I really need to get a better plan laid out for the kids. I have an added hurdle as one of them has special needs. She is 21 years old, but moves pretty slow.

I keep the following on the nightstand; wireless landline and cell phones, XD-45 with spare mag, Sure-Fire light, vehicle keys with the keyless fob so I can hit the panic button to set off the alarm. I keep my SR556 under the bed with 1, 20 round mag loaded with TAP ammo and extra 30 round mag of M193. Shoes an old flight suit and go-bag between the nightstand and bed.

I mounted a green laser on the SR556 for shock value, but I’m not really sure if I’ll keep it on there or not. My wife has quick access to the 870 and can handle it fairly well.

We have 2 small ankle grabbers that raise hell anytime someone they don’t know is in the house. We have a 2 story Charleston style house with a large front porch top and bottom, but no real exit plan for the 2nd floor. Any ideas on that?
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Old 02-04-2010, 14:25   #35
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There are so many things wrong with this plan.

Giving away your position by voice. You had the upper hand until you said something. Approaching the intruder so that he can hear you. Probability for being shot increases. You are now walking slower and probably trying to see him, so that you may speak. Telling him your armed just gave him a reason too shoot you.
Firearms are not to scare anybody, they are a tool for a specific use. i.e. don't draw unless you're going to shoot. Why?
If you view guns as intimidators, you won't have the drive to pull the trigger in the seconds it takes to react before you're shot at.
Your mind will be racing about the consequences and everything else and fail to act. Then it will be too late.
I'm inclined to disagree with this disagreement.

I lean in Longstreet's direction here.

Seems that most people have a cell phone. A burglar who hears "the police are on the way" would have every reason to believe it. "I have a shotgun and I'll use it" should deter the "casual" burglar, usually some teenager from the neighborhood (ex-LEO here). And, in those states without a "castle" law, that phrase on the 911 tape may bear a LOT of weight.

Besides, I've had one father-in-law and two sons "sneak" into the house late at night (using keys) when they couldn't go to their own homes for various reasons. I'm not sure I would have recognized them, but "Hey, it's me", in answer to a loud challenge, prevented tragedy.

Any intimidator beats an exchange of gunfire IMHO, especially with my family on the other side of various thin pieces of drywall. And I am inclined to believe that an alert adult voice with an aggressive tone sends a signal that a far easier "victim" might be found elsewhere.

On the "defense of home" side, I am prepared to defend the part of my home that is occupied. My electronic equipment and camera are insured. Venturing forth from my bedroom to do combat in unoccupied areas isn't worth the risk. I am the major source of income here, and my loss would have a far more drastic effect than the absence of my TV. That potential $10,000 or more for a lawyer to defend my actions is a bit of a bite as well.

And, bottom line, I don't WANT to shoot some teen-dufus who wants to steal enough of my stuff to get a new IPOD.

On the barrier side of things, my ranch is divided into three areas by pocket doors, and they aren't the thin internal doors that some use. These are strong and well-seated. Confuses the hell out of people who don't know the layout well. You hit a door, you fumble for the knob, and there is no knob.

Additionally, there are some excellent, cheap home security cameras. I have one that shoots down the hallway that connects all rooms. It connects (by radio signal) to a cheap monitor by my bed. My hall light (or if I wish, every light in the house) comes on when motion is sensed. That causes a loud beep and the cheap b/w monitor screen comes to life. Beats hell out of sticking my head around the corner.

In order to attract attention and make any intruder feel uncomfortable, I also have a wireless perimeter system that broadcasts to a console in my BR closet. That console is wired to one deafening siren under a metal roof vent and one each red, one each blue, strobe light that flash onto my yard. Not only does it alert self and neighbors, but it attracts the curious. And, there's something about flashing blue and red lights that disconcerts intruders.

My little camera also records on a hidden backup computer drive, but that's for after-action. Still, a good clear picture of a burglar is an excellent aid to recovering property.
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Old 02-04-2010, 15:05   #36
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Question.

Is it true that a large percentages of home invasions or home burglaries are perpetrated by people that know you and the surroundings in some manner?

The reason I ask that is that it would appear to me that the perp would have much better chance of success if they had prior knowledge of what you have and where it located. Whereas if it is random, they are going in blind and might come up empty handed.
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Old 02-04-2010, 15:31   #37
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Edited.

Good questions about defense in depth and rally points above, all things I'll need to consider as my household grows. I also like the idea of keeping all members of the family on the 2nd floor with my room near the chokepoint.
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Old 02-04-2010, 19:07   #38
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HC, you need to slow down and read before commenting for a while. Ready, aim, fire.

His Disciple, while I agree that firing a warning shot is a bad idea, I have quite a few issues with the rest of your commentary. Unless you have some special military or LE training that is missing from your profile, you should probably save your advice for areas where you do have some expertise.

Plato, I like the way you are thinking.

LRSU, b22b, inceptor, good prep. All I can say about higher floors with limited exit options is to make sure that the window can be opened and consider planting something soft below.

Shar, how old is your oldest child? Could he/she be put in charge of collecting the others and hiding or slipping out of the house to the neighbors? We live in a house with a split plan, and our kids are in the opposite end of the house. Our oldest is responsible for gathering the youngest and getting to safety. You could keep an air horn in the bedroom for fires and intruders, just make sure everyone knows what they are supposed to do and has rehearsed it.

Again, dogs are great, especially if at least one is kept indoors.

911 calls can be as short as necessary. The lines are all recorded now, and in most areas, the location shows up when the call is received. You couldf literally dial the number and drop the phone while yelling at the intruder. I do not need the moral support of the dispatcher (who seem to vary widely in quality these days), and the recording may be used in your hearing/trial, so all I have to say is "This is Mr. X., at YZ Maple Street. There is an intruder in my home, I am afraid that he might be armed. I have a gun and am prepared to defend my family. I am afraid for their safety. Please hurry." It does not matter if the intruder hears this or not, though your legal position is better iof he does. Then drop the phone or hand it to the spouse. I do not plan to get into a gunfight while yakking on a phone.

Great point about the legal aftermath. If you do not currently get American Handgunner, get a copy and read Massad Ayoob's column. He is usually testifying in some citizen's trial as an expert and you would not believe how often people are charged or sued. $10,000 in legal fees for a righteous shooting is probably a starting point.

You might be surprised at how effective properly placed nightlights can be for tactical illum. You know the layout and their location. The intruder probably does not. That is enough to manuever, should you need to, until you have the need to engage. Then once you have determined the number and location of intruders, and are ready to engage, a powerful hand held or weapons light can be applied for final ID prior to one final voice command and engaging. If the intruder is armed and failes to respond to the voice command, or appears to be unarmed but acts aggressively, then it is time to engage.

Do not forget that a car of excited cops are about to show up at a crime scene where they know at least one person is armed. Never point the weapon at the responding officers, try to put it in a safe place as they arrive, and obey all instructions they issue to the letter. Hopefully, you have ID handy and can quickly establish that you are the homeowner.

You do as you see fit, but I would probably see to the security and status of my family ASAP, tell the cops that you were afraid for your life and the lives of your family, and tell them that you are too shaken to make a coherent statement right away. As soon as possible, get a lawyer and let him do your talking. I know lawyering up looks bad, but it beats the alternative of delivering a full statement still coming down off the adrenaline rush, and then having some shyster pick the police version of your statement concerning life or death decisions apart over a month long trial that could incarcerate or bankrupt you.

I agree that most burglaries happen during daylight hours while the homeowners are at work. Home invaders probably prefer the night, since they may be after you, as well as your stuff.

As a warning, unless you are trained, DO NOT attempt to go on the offense after the intruder. Barricade yourself in a covered or at least concealed position, and prepare to defend yourself.

If you ever come home, and find your door ajar, DO NOT CLEAR THE HOUSE YOURSELF! Call the cops and consider parking a short distance away, where you can observe your home till they arrive. Once they do, tell them what is going on and wait for them to clear it and give you the opportunity to enter and inventory. Frankly, after they have cleared it, you may want to have them follow you while you do your own inspection. If anything has been tampered with, be very cautious, they may have missed the intruder and he may still be in the house.

I hope this thread helps people prepare and do at least a little planning. Most of us will never have to execute the plan. I hope that anyone who does comes out of it on top. Best of luck.

TR
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Old 02-04-2010, 19:24   #39
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HC, you need to slow down and read before commenting for a while. Ready, aim, fire.
Your house, your rules. I shall endeavor to obey.

I hope those who have PMed me with both support and concern continue to do so.

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Old 02-04-2010, 19:36   #40
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As mentioned, I really do not know anything about this and am only stating what I would do given my limited understanding of the situation. I am learning from what is being posted and will change my plan. Thanks for the 'simulation' idea and while she may think I am nuts, I will do it.

Right so the glass breaks . . .

Assuming it is from ground level (I live in a two story house and would find it difficult for someone to break in on the second floor - not that it couldn't), I would turn on the lights and call 911. I would grab my gun (which will now not be locked. Question on this though. Although it is law to have any firearms safely secured - one which I agree with TR that does not work well if I need it ASAP. - and while I do not have any children (yet) leaving an unlocked loaded firearm in the corner of a room does not sit well with me. It just seems like an accident waiting to happen and is far more likely to accidently hurt/kill a 'good guy' rather than a 'bad guy'. Are there any other suggeestion to this or do I simply need to deal with it?
Jayson it's good you're thinking about this, but let me offer a few thoughts; first yes a loaded gun is a hazard of sorts to some people, children being my primary concern. If there are no children living in the house then there is not a huge threat, and it is mitigated by having all adults in the house being shown how to fire and clear the weapon. If you are uncomfortable keeping the weapon fully loaded I would recommend having a snap cap (dummy round) in the chamber and keeping the weapon on safe. That way it is no more dangerous than a bullet laying on the dresser, however it can be made ready very quickly, rack the slide, snap cap is ejected and you're hot and ready to go. This also serves as your warning, yelling IMO is unnecessary, if the person in the house has ill intent they are going to do one of two things, retreat or keep coming, either way you yelling will have no more effect on their decision making process than the racking of a slide, however as others have said they may be able to better determine your location or they hear nervousness in your voice, neither of which is good for you tactically, but this is also situational, in my house there would be no reason for any other human to be inside other than my wife after I've locked up, I have a nieghbor with a key but they know I am armed and well trained and know better than to enter without my permission. If you have family or are concerned that the threat may be the police then a ghost call out may be in order, but IMO that would be best reserved for someone with a little more training and a command voice, but it is a personal decision IMO. Me personally I'm going to rack the slide and that's your warning, the next thing you'll hear is a bang. Understand the racking of a shotgun slide is the 2nd most recognizable sound on earth, second only to a Harley , and it is a universal sound that means go away. Any friendlys in the area are going to sing out their name and status at hearing the slide being racked, and they are likely to stop moving until they make contact with you, but your situation may be different if you have family in the area or multiple neighbors with access to your house.

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Back to the break in . . . with the call made, I would approach my stairs and yell down that I know someone is there and that the police have been called. I would also inform the intruder(s) that I am armed and would procede to cock my shotgun. Hopefully this would scare away the intruder. Should it not work, given the layout of my stairs, if the intruder was to try to walk up them, I could fire a warning in safety and retreat back to my room if the intruder continued.
Ok lots of issues here, if racking the slide didn't scare away the intruder your voice is probably not going to have any effect, they are INTENT on doing you and yours harm and must be dealt with. I would highly discourage warning shots, if you rack the slide and they keep coming a warning shot is simply a wasted round and wasted time, both of which may result in you or your families demise. Another issue, the stairs are a choke point in most cases, if you have only one way up and down that is the best place to make your stand should it come to that, the bad guy has no cover and you hold the high ground while he is in a fatal funnel. If I'm at home and have racked the slide and a bad guy keeps coming, I'm going to end him at the stairs, retreating at this point is simply giving up an advantage for a little meaningless time, if they keep coming up the stairs you need to be ready to keep them from making it to the top.


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From here I would again lie down perpendicuar to the door with her beside me. The baseball bat would be a great idea and I will look into getting one although I do have a hockey stick, heh-heh. Hopefully the police would arrive at this time.
Hope is not a strategy, you have two choices in this scenario IMO, fight or hide and I equate hiding with dying, if you want to block the bedroom door then get a door club, but don't surrender yourself to act as a final door stop, I'd rather go down fighting than to hope the bad guy is a moron.


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I really do not know what I would do for my next step. Using the bat/hockey stick sounds good, but if the intruder is armed with a firearm, it mite not be the best idea. Of course the shotgun could be used, but I have no faith in Canadian law and I would probably go to prison unless I could solidly argue that the intruder was an immediate threat to my gf and I. I really hope it never comes to this.

jaYson
Jayson you sound as if you are only willing to use the shotgun as a warning instrument, I would advise you that if you are unwilling to use it to take a life then you may want to reconsider getting one.

Also when I was a police officer there was a saying many of us used to live by, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Canadian law may suck, and it may not side with you, however if you don't do anything in this scenario you may be dead right along with your loved ones, personally I'd rather neutralize the threat, ensure my family is safe, and deal with the consequences whatever they may be afterwards.

Just a few thoughts
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Old 02-04-2010, 19:46   #41
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Loaded weapons?

You can keep the keys in the truck as long as you leave the Western Diamond-Back rattle snake living under the seat alone. I caught him sunning one warm Oct day, fed him occasionlly, Nov. - March.

Come April, he was nowhere is sight.

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Old 02-04-2010, 19:58   #42
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Just my wife and I. She doesn't handle firearms so...
Solid doors and windows
Alarm system on doors and selected windows w/ Motion Detectors
A knife under the cushions of sofa and chairs where possible
.357 Ruger Security Six in the bedroom w/ 12 extra rounds.
12 Gauge pump w/ OO Buck Shot
Several fixed blade knives
Oak bo for non-lethal use
Various flashlights
Cell phone on the nightstand

2 hyper West Highland Terriers that can hear me open a bag of jerky in the front of the house while in a sound sleep at the back of the house....

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Old 02-04-2010, 20:59   #43
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I was just talking to my wife yesterday about getting her a POW for home defense for when I'm away. Shot gun seems to be the best choice. Less chance of rounds going through walls. Easier for the spouse to employ. My signs that say NO TRESPASSING YOU WILL BE SHOT!!! would hopefully be a good deterrent,, for would be invaders. There is also the alarm system with 2 way voice so the alarm company can come over the speaker and hear if all is well, as well as talk to us to ask if we are ok. Police response time is about 20 min so we are pretty much on our own.

I also heard that NC is a castle state but from what I read that can mean several things anyone have any insight???
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Old 02-04-2010, 21:24   #44
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Shar, how old is your oldest child? Could he/she be put in charge of collecting the others and hiding or slipping out of the house to the neighbors?
Might be able to... my kids are all between 5 and 8, so nothing is fool-proof. They are really good hiders though - hide and seek is played obsessively around here. The window of the room I'd have them hunker down in does face the hyper-vigilant lady across the street and if they made enough noise, she'd hear them.

What sits best with me is getting the 3rd cell phone we've been talking about getting and having it in the oldest's room at night. They could hide, hunker down and call 911. The police station is less than a mile away from us, so response time would be minutes. I'm thinking that we should also establish a code word with them so if we come in frantic at night all I need to do is pull them out of bed and say one word and they'll do what they need to do to hide. What do you think?

Are the "Beware of dog" signs people put up worth it? I'm positive she'd make quite a ruckus if someone tried to get in at night, but she's a Dane and might lick them to death when she greeted them.

On a slightly different note, for anyone with small children -
Over the past few years I've gone to the fire department with all of my kids for various school tours. The firemen always get all their gear on (masks, etc) and show the kids what they look like all dressed up. Without fail a couple kids always get really scared of the outfitted fireman. They then proceed to have the kids crawl all over them and get used to the outfit. They let them try on the masks, etc. They've told us parents that there have been times where they'll go in full gear to get a kid out of a bad situation and the kid will run away or become difficult because they are "scary." It's a good idea to have your kid see a fully outfitted fireman before they come face to face with one in a fire.
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Old 02-04-2010, 22:05   #45
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Might be able to... my kids are all between 5 and 8, so nothing is fool-proof. They are really good hiders though - hide and seek is played obsessively around here. The window of the room I'd have them hunker down in does face the hyper-vigilant lady across the street and if they made enough noise, she'd hear them.

What sits best with me is getting the 3rd cell phone we've been talking about getting and having it in the oldest's room at night. They could hide, hunker down and call 911. The police station is less than a mile away from us, so response time would be minutes. I'm thinking that we should also establish a code word with them so if we come in frantic at night all I need to do is pull them out of bed and say one word and they'll do what they need to do to hide. What do you think?

Are the "Beware of dog" signs people put up worth it? I'm positive she'd make quite a ruckus if someone tried to get in at night, but she's a Dane and might lick them to death when she greeted them.

On a slightly different note, for anyone with small children -
Over the past few years I've gone to the fire department with all of my kids for various school tours. The firemen always get all their gear on (masks, etc) and show the kids what they look like all dressed up. Without fail a couple kids always get really scared of the outfitted fireman. They then proceed to have the kids crawl all over them and get used to the outfit. They let them try on the masks, etc. They've told us parents that there have been times where they'll go in full gear to get a kid out of a bad situation and the kid will run away or become difficult because they are "scary." It's a good idea to have your kid see a fully outfitted fireman before they come face to face with one in a fire.
What's the most likely avenue of approach from an intruder, front door, bedroom window, garage?

Start training the new pup. Call a friend on the phone, have him/her to rattle door or scratch the window, and reward a bark or growl with a praise. Slowly at first then get more intense later. Never give up your friend during the training, it will spoil the event. Use different friends as time allows.

My Wirehair is very loving to strangers, never barks, unless someone is walking up the walkway, at the door or window. When pup is older (10 months), he sleeps with the kids, sorry mom, your're on your own.
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