Old 12-22-2007, 15:52   #46
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The Reaper,

I apologize if I come across as a whiny kid, that was not my intent. In answer to your question, yes, I know I can lead a squad/company size element. There is no doubt in my mind that I have the capability to do it.
I've been recommended for promotion twice to E5 by those in charge of me. Both times my packet has been kicked back and the reasoning was "Your an Xray. We dont' promote Xrays". Meanwhile, I've seen RA spec 4's get promoted to E5, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. Surprisingly, none of those soldiers are in the Q anymore.

Currently, there are mass promotions for all E4's to E5 being handed out to those that finish their MOS training. This is not happening with the 18D. As an 18D candidate who's finished my MOS training, I believe I have the right to ask why that is not occuring with the 18D's. The fact that I'm also an X-ray is coincidental.

Surprisingly, most X-rays, that are quality guys, are not here for the money, or the rank. The lack of promotions while in the Q, and the BS that we put up with for simply being an X-ray, are not going to change our minds about where we want to be and what we want to do.


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Your perception of your Leadership of men skills may just be a little higher than the reality. You will never know until you are in a Real Unit not a training unit. I have known a few Outstanding SF Baby's and a lot that could not lead a monkey down the hall on a leash. Not knocking you or them that is just a fact. Only a few men were born right out of the crib to be an NCO and Combat leader but most were taught and learned over time by being taught by those with experience in their units. You have chosen your track to run and there are historical reasons for what you are experiencing. Just suck it up and continue to drive on with a positive outlook and determination and you will get there.
Head the words of those that have traveled this trail before you. I can tell you between just 3 of us on this thread we have over 60 years of RA and SF time. TR and others know the hurdles and what is needed and what works.

You sort of sound like my son when he entered the army and now he finally has told me that you know dad you do know what you are talking about.
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:03   #47
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What blows my mind is...

"Teachers openly told us the answers, and we cheated with another to pass.

And you're not sure why you're not learning things you thought you would learn?
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Old 10-06-2010, 22:45   #48
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"Q" updates, and some memories from the old guys

I received a mobile phone text today from one of our younger brother currently in the middle of the “Q”. While sitting in class, he responds to a text I sent, asking, "How's it going? What's up?, Where are you these days?"

His reply was, "Hi. It's going well? I'm sitting in class right now. Q course is different than I imagined...more handholding than I anticipated. How's everything with you?"

I see age and maturity in his reply, nothing ordinary, just simple dialogue with student and myself. I've mentored more than one over the years, but continually see the trend.

Another this week, said, "I seem to know a lot about the process and 'course' and I haven't even been selected yet".

My reply to that soldier was, "One of the greatest treasures I took from my SF experience, was not knowing what was coming next. You have the gift of intuition, develop it.”

From a QP this week,….

“Brother, I fear I would be completely lost in today’s Army. I had a rebellious nature, I questioned authority, took everything "with a grain of salt", took initiatives, supported my Team Leader and Tm Sgt, and never left a buddy to do a job alone, regardless of rank.”

“These kids today, actually believe they can graduate on their own. Brother, I never worked out outside of regular PT. I didn't read a book, "to find the magic bullet", I absolutely would never go rucking on the weekends just to get more miles and toughen my feet. My weekends were meant for grilling a steak, (in the barracks), having a beer or two or three, maybe four, fix or six, writing a letter to a girl back home or maybe turning a wrench on the truck. In short, I slept alot, and took a nap everyday lying in the sun."

From another, “My ass would be administratively discharged or just plain court martialed, as I would not put troops on any frigging road, much less drive down the damn road. The infantry walks. Even Mech INF is supposed to get off the damn roads too. These damn Generals have never seen combat. They are like having a TRADOC O-6 write doctrine when he has never commanded shit in combat, has no CIB, etc. I really worry about these troops today with these ROE's.”

And from another, “Much is very true. Let me expand a bit. We took a company basecamp of 80 plus VC complete with bunkers and training facilities made of bamboo on 15 Nov 68. I had one SF NCO and 30 yards. .That is how good those raids were. Now after being lucky and catching these battle tested VC by surprise while they were washing rice pots in a steam and resting, my CCS CO (LTC) orders my ass back to guard the damn berm that night. I about shit.

The Infantry School taught me to take a enemy bunker complex and to set up for a counter attack. We fought 7 hours to take that place, called in the damn world and lost one yard. Then I was ordered to give the damn bunker complex back before I could blow it. I blew up the side of a mountain later. Two weeks or so earlier, ‘John’ and I hit an NVA heavy weapons company. We had them by surprise as they did not see us or know where we were when the gunships hit them. My CO pulls us.

Our base camps are built too large. Base camps, if any, should be built as small as possible, and; require as few troops as possible to defend.

If you cannot field an entire company plus from a BN plus-your base camp is way too damn big."

BT

I mention all this for two, and only two reasons.

Make the “Q” what you want it be. Second, we honor a young SSG who received the CMOH today, age at death, 24 years old. He was one of you, sitting in class, thinking, “there is a lot of hand holding going on.”

For those who are about to graduate, please, please, please, remain humble. Listen to your Tm SGTs upon your next assignments. Ask questions, remain open to learn, we need you guys desperately, and being ‘desperate’ is a tough place to be.

Wet Dog

Last edited by wet dog; 10-06-2010 at 22:50.
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Old 10-06-2010, 23:37   #49
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The SFQC is but Junior High, your ODA is High School and College rolled together. Step up to the challenge or go back to the regular army.

As bad as I ever thought I had it in SF, I had to merely visit a conventional army post (such as Graf last week), and see them in action. I clicked my heels 3 times and said "there's no place like SF" repeatedly. A great refresher to help me focus on the challenges of raising 3 Xrays on a 5 man Bteam.

As for leadership. some are born with it, some find it along the way, others are still floating along in the pond looking for a clue.
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Old 10-06-2010, 23:58   #50
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In my time as an SFODA primary nco I met a few of these dissatisfied misfits and recommended them to support battalion to help them on their way. Now the beautiful thing about an EER is that they follow you FOREVER. Never accept this type of individual.

When I entered my first team room on Smoke Bomb Hill I was informed that the "Q" offered me an introduction. Then began my job performance which would be (and was) much more difficult.

Military careers are too short to waste time on prima donas. E's or O's. (WO's)
I hear you brother, 'loud and clear'.

I loved the "Q", the challenges, the friends. I loved my first ODA even more.

This thread, which I had to read, again, from the beginning set me off, got under my skin and put me on my heels.

It was the PMs from our brothers sent this week that gave a sense of relief, when we concurred the "Q" was a learning lab preparing the new soldier with the skills needed. Our young brother who texted me today is the type we do want on our ODAs, trust me. He's wanting more, and I'm assuring him, it will come. He's demanding of himself, he's determined to be the best he can, and in that I'm confident SF will remain a palace for warriors to ascent to.

The prepared SF soldiers identifies all needed requirements for a successful mission. He then identifies his shortages. If adaptation is needed, he adjusts, right? Where else is one going to learn that in this army, today, if not in SF. My personal challenge was my inexperience in the army in general. I entered the "Q" as a PFC/E3, and graduated as a CPL/E4. While visiting a friend at Benning after my "Q" graduation, I entered the Pay and Finance Office for assistance and was confronted by the NCOIC, SFC/E7 who could not take his eyes off of my NCO development ribbon. He berated me for 15 minutes because I had completed BNCOC, at my rank. I felt helpless. I simply knew nothing about the regular army, having never been in a regular army unit.

It was the Tm S-1, who said, "Seperate yourself from the 'minutia', focus on the needs of the team, circle back and complete the details".

I had to look that "word" up. In perfect SF style, I identified my weaknesses and made them my strengths, 6 months later, I became the S1, he went to O&I.

There is a flow to this, I welcome this next generation of troopers.

Last edited by wet dog; 11-16-2010 at 23:28.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:10   #51
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This thread, which I had to read, again, from the beginning set me off, got under my skin and put me on my heels.
I had to re-read the thread again myself. It irritated me as well. What most of these younger guys don't realize is that we were in this business for 30+ years prior to 9/11 and combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are expected to be equally adept at developing a POI, training a police force, teaching BRM, setting the headspace and timing, conducting a raid, leading troops, setting up a classroom, ...and the list goes on. You could spend years at SWC....and still walk out of there without a full grasp of what you will encounter next on an ODA.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:54   #52
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First problem is the recruiting and all of the eye candy that is presented: Guys jumping HALO, Coming out of the water in SCUBA Gear, Racing through a river on a zodiac raft,Patrolling with cool boony caps, blowing doors and rushing in, etc etc.
To begin with, anyone that applies thinking that this is all we do...is probably too stupid to successfully graduate the course. Advertising...is just that...advertising. Before you purchase...you still have a responsibility to do your own homework to determine whether or not this is a job for you. This is why the admins of this site are so stringent on people using the "search" button. Everyone wants their answer...now...on their terms...and if it isn't the answer they want...they want to argue about it. In the age of the 'net...just about everything is out there if you're willing to search for it. Don't blame advertising...blame laziness.

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I heard it throughout my time in the q-course and hear it now and again by men of wisdom, that truly competent SF personnel are masters of the BASICS.
You're mistaken...we are also expected to master the more intricate, detailed, and tougher tasks as well. A well built foundation provides for a stronger structure. No amount of "high speed" training will stand up to poor fundamentals.

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One is there is a mandatory safety brief every Friday and long weekend.
As much as it pains me to say this...on your left pec...just above your left ACU shirt pocket...there's a small piece of tape...it says, "U.S. ARMY." No amount of bitching will take away from the fact that we are still a part of the "big Army."

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The second problem is something to do with is an individual has less than a 70 average than that person must attend a mandatory study hall…..Is this a good course of action? I don’t think so.
There is nothing wrong with a study hall, mandatory or otherwise...some Soldiers have never learned good study habits. Some mistakenly believe they are just incapable of grasping a specific concept and are therefore not smart enough to proceed. We try to give them the help they'll need. Not just to make them successfully pass a specific portion of the course...but also to be successful on a team. You stated you just "reclassed"...is this because you were not good enough at your previous MOS...or did you think you were going to be better as a delta...maybe your command just thought it would be nice to have you out of sight and out of mind for several months. I have known many 18 series Soldiers over the years with several different 18 series MOSs. And all of them have fallen into one catagory or another. Very few were actually sent from their detachment to get a second MOS because their Tm Sgt thought it would be better for the team. My only point in all of this is that what you may think is "hand-holding" others may think of as mentoring, training, and leading.

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Here is how this would brief if I was the Boss:...
When you're the boss...you can institute the change you wish to see...and I guarentee that someone, probably with a lot less time in SF than you...will think you've got it wrong.

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SOME not ALL instructors need to take a look at themselves and get off the poopy face fucking train and except the fact that they are instructors.
All I can say here is:
1. You meant accept...not except...two different meanings.
2. In SF, as I'm sure you're well aware, everything revolves around the ODA. You're either fighting to get on one, stay on one, or get back to one. It's only after you've done your Team Sergeant time do you have to accept the fact that it's over.

And just out of curiousity...have you had an assignment to SWC?
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:18   #53
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Don't take my "rant" as a personal attack, I was just trying to show different sides to the discussion.

As for the "big boy rules"...I did say it pains me to say it. Those that know me, know I hate having to follow all the rules all the time...but it's gotten increasingly harder to maintain that mentality as I've grown older...i.e. made rank.

I wasn't catagorizing you as a pain, I apologize if that's what came across, I simply meant that there is a lot of different reasons to change MOS's...not all of them are a result of someone wanting to be a better asset to a team. Some of the best 18E's I've known failed 300F1 (an old 18D part of the course). Some of the best 18B's...couldn't copy code to save their life. Personally...I sucked as an 18B...but excelled as an 18F....the jury's probably still out on my success as an 18Z.

Honestly, there wasn't a need to let me know you haven't done a SWC tour...those of us that have...knew you hadn't. And if you come and you're not kicking and screaming...there's probably some serious extenuating circumstances. FWIW...in nearly 25 yrs, 21 in group,...this is my third tour.
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Old 10-07-2010, 14:10   #54
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........I don't remember there being a safety brief every Friday of every weekend when I went through the course or when I was on the line..........
As a 1SG in 1st Bn during 1989 I can well remember the Safety Briefing given to the students at the start of every long weekend and training holiday weekend.

I would venture to say most don't remember it as there was the typical eye rolling, dazed looking "Ain't this shit over yet" look on all their faces. Can't say I blame them but "Check the Square, they got the brief. Big boy rule in effect."
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Old 10-24-2010, 19:19   #55
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study hall

as someone currently going through the delta course (albeit almost done with it) i would like to comment on the study hall issue. i have to agree with SF718 in the basic feeling that study hall is a waste of time. if an individual isn't motivated enough to study and work on their weaknesses then they shouldn't be here. study hall should be voluntary for all soldiers. i found plenty of time to study at home with a wife and 3 kids and still maintained a 95% average through SOCM and a 93% average through SFMS. the idea of study hall is to provide uninterrupted study time...but what about when an individual doesn't know how to study? or what about if the material doesn't make sense to him? the biggest problem with study hall is that there isn't anyone there who can answer your questions or help you to see why things are the way they are. there is supposed to be an instructor present during study hall. they aren't. half the time they come take roll and disappear. the other half they don't even come by. you could argue "well ask a classmate who understands it better" and the exact counter point you'll hear is "they're in study hall too for failing as well". so there goes the credibility of anyone else in study hall with few exceptions (the guy that normally gets 90-100's and bombed one test for what ever reason). yes there is A LOT of information being put out in the course and for a good reason. we just need to figure out a way to get the guys who WANT to know it the information in a way that makes sense and weed out the ones who don't WANT to know it. i've known several guys that really didn't want to be there and were happy with simply skating by with a 75% even though they could do a lot better. honestly i'd rather have the dude that failed trying working on me than the guy who barely passed but had the potential to do a lot better.

as for the other issues brought up in this forum-saftey briefs-while i hate them just as much as everyone else in the course and wish and keep hoping for the day of "you got the safety brief when you got here, those are the standards, disobey and you're out" i've been in the army long enough to know this isn't going to happen. i do appreciate what JSOMTC does as far as us going to the safety briefs only for long weekends. my personal feeling is that once you hit MOS phase this is how it should be. after all you have proven yourself to be somewhat mature and competent.

language school-breaking language school up the way it used to be was retarded. i'm glad they brought it back to all of it in one shot. i never was given answers to any tests. language school was challenging and i studied 3-4 hrs a day everyday and think i got a lot out of it. my biggest complaint was the during the OPI i wasn't allowed to talk beyond skill level 1 and neither were any of us who tested with that particular tester. there were several of us that our instructors told us we could speak at a skill level 2. i would've appreciated that opportunity.

as for .50 cal's and humvee's-as an infantryman i was only briefly exposed to these in basic AND when i got to my unit. it wasn't until i got to Ranger Battalion that i finally learned about setting headspace and timing and how to drive a humvee. he does have a point in stating that there is a lot of common soldier skills left out of the Qcourse however that's where someone who's an Xray has to realize they're will be a step learning curve when he gets to Group to learn these things.

on the subject of O's and E's-that guy is an idiot. plan and simple. Bragg has enough brass that if he's trying to convince anyone he doesn't know the relationship between officers and enlisted....well lets just say i want some of whatever he's smoking.
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Old 10-25-2010, 22:07   #56
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" A LOUSY TAB?"

Don't ever expect anything from anyone and you will never be disappointed.

Depend on yourself and others may see fit to depend on you....

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Old 10-26-2010, 05:05   #57
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Don't ever expect anything from anyone and you will never be disappointed.

Depend on yourself and others may see fit to depend on you....

Regard's,....tom kelly
We didn't even have a tab. All I got was some of the most amazing experiences in history, hang out with heroes, and do things that people only see in the movies. Made history a couple of times.

Yeah, I see what you mean. It should be three years! (It would have still been worth it!)
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Old 10-26-2010, 13:28   #58
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I never got the Tab or the Yarborough knife,but I did earn a "Green Beret" which to me is the most meaningful award I've ever earned....... De Oppresso Liber......

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Old 10-26-2010, 14:18   #59
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We didn't even have a tab. All I got was some of the most amazing experiences in history, hang out with heroes, and do things that people only see in the movies. Made history a couple of times.

Yeah, I see what you mean. It should be three years! (It would have still been worth it!)
All that... and the pride my daughters have in knowing that I did what I did, when I did it, and who I did it in the company of...
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Old 10-26-2010, 14:39   #60
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I loved it so much I did Sage twice as a Light Weapons guy and then went back to reclass as a medic...
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