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Old 10-08-2017, 13:51   #1
micakno
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SF combat proficiency?

Forgive me if I failed to find this elsewhere on the site, not very computer savvy.

I was always under the impression that the training of foreign armies did not mean SF didn't do just as much combat overall and wasn't just as good at it as other SOF groups, nor am I implying that, just needing clarity after hearing/reading a few things.

I once had a drill sergeant that was infantry that described SF as mainly trainers. He seemed to be saying they were overrated the way I perceived it and told a short story of an infantry private with an SF sergeant in a gunfight or something telling him to "get back with his weapon", as if he didn't know what he was doing. I'm not ready to believe that SF are mainly language specialists with guns, as I've heard before.

In the book the Guerrilla Factory about SF, Tony Schwalm describes the difference between the commando and the guerrilla (SF trooper). A commando can shoot move and communicate (the pillars of an effective combatant) at an unseen before alacrity. The guerrilla can do that well too, although the cultural-rapport requirement nearly precludes the ability to shoot (and perhaps move and communicate) like a commando, he says.

The Chosen Soldier by Dick Couch also says that while Rangers and SEALs for example might kick in doors faster, the strength of SF lie in its adaptability. The early missions of the 75th RR, depended on discipline, speed, surprise, and daring, traits perhaps having more in common with modern Rangers than with SF, he says. Is that to say that Rangers are more disciplined than SF? Or just that Rangers celebrate their discipline more?

Yet I have also read articles and instances where just an ODA or two were outnumbered, outpositioned, outgunned, and somehow fought their way out, a feat. Perhaps the commando starts his mission from the top, while SF excels at succeeding in disorderly conditions, rather. A matter of versatility and endurance as opposed to speed and shock; a distance runner vs a sprinter. The impression I have then is that SEALs and Rangers are more specialized in raids, while SF is better at fighting battles, more broadly. Is that so? If other SOFs are more specialized in direct action, that's one thing, but DA is still only one facet of combat, true? With that said, I ask, especially with regards to what Tony Schwalm has to say- obviously SF can teach; but can they also fight at least as well as any other SOF group?
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Old 10-08-2017, 15:59   #2
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One Hundred Green Berets overthrew the entire country of Afghanistan (With a bit of support) in a matter of weeks.

Very few of them were combat vets at the time.

Ever wonder why the US military decided to send in the Green Berets first?

Now go read more books, lots more books.
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Old 10-09-2017, 14:27   #3
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Let me help;
The following is a partial list of reading material about SF soldiers. Almost all of them were written by SF soldiers. Almost all of them show how SF can fight against overwhelming odds. All of them show that SF has the ability to fight better than any other unit:

Assault on Dak Pek --- Leigh Wade

Reflections of a Warrior -- Franklin Miller

Blackjack 33 --- James Donahue

Blackjack 34 --- James Donahue

The Three Wars of Roy Benavidez --- Roy P. Benavidez/Oscar Griffin

Abandoned in Hell (The Siege on Firebase Kate) --- William Albracht/Marvin Wolf

Green Berets at War --- Shelby Stanton

The Only Thing Worth Dying For --- Eric Blehm

Roughneck Nine-One ---- Frank Antenori/Hans Halberstadt


As to the predecessors of modern SF read up on the First Special Service Force, OSS Jedburgh teams, and OSS Detachment 101 of WWII.
After lots of reading and researching you will see that SF is more than able to shoot, communicate, and move as well as any other SOF unit.
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Old 10-09-2017, 15:45   #4
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I've heard the same crap from some.....want to bet his Drill Sgt. was a non select at SFAS?
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Old 10-10-2017, 19:12   #5
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:53   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRB View Post
I've heard the same crap from some.....want to bet his Drill Sgt. was a non select at SFAS?
DING, DING, DING!....No more callers please, we have a winner. That was my thought exactly. Our biggest critics, in uniform and those that never served, have always been those that couldn't pass the muster.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:07   #7
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No one person can do everything so it takes a team effort with many different skill sets and personalities no matter what branch a guy is in.
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Old 10-11-2017, 18:10   #8
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That's what I thought. Team Sgt, did I ask that bad of a question? As I said, I wasn't implying anything, just had to ask since I'm a 68W not an 18 series so I wouldn't know firsthand
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Old 10-13-2017, 18:41   #9
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Last edited by micakno; 10-13-2017 at 18:46.
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Old 10-13-2017, 18:50   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfshooter View Post
Let me help;
The following is a partial list of reading material about SF soldiers. Almost all of them were written by SF soldiers. Almost all of them show how SF can fight against overwhelming odds. All of them show that SF has the ability to fight better than any other unit:

Assault on Dak Pek --- Leigh Wade

Reflections of a Warrior -- Franklin Miller

Blackjack 33 --- James Donahue

Blackjack 34 --- James Donahue

The Three Wars of Roy Benavidez --- Roy P. Benavidez/Oscar Griffin

Abandoned in Hell (The Siege on Firebase Kate) --- William Albracht/Marvin Wolf

Green Berets at War --- Shelby Stanton

The Only Thing Worth Dying For --- Eric Blehm

Roughneck Nine-One ---- Frank Antenori/Hans Halberstadt


As to the predecessors of modern SF read up on the First Special Service Force, OSS Jedburgh teams, and OSS Detachment 101 of WWII.
After lots of reading and researching you will see that SF is more than able to shoot, communicate, and move as well as any other SOF unit.
thanks that helps
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Old 10-13-2017, 21:31   #11
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You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.
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Old 10-14-2017, 00:08   #12
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No doubt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.
But then Big Army has to come in . . . Just sayin'
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:53   #13
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Originally Posted by Remington Raidr View Post
But then Big Army has to come in . . . Just sayin'
And set up the AFFES and Burger King Buildings... Then comes the posted speed limits and single magazines taped on buttstocks... The War is realy over once you see a PT belt over body armor...
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Old 10-15-2017, 13:05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.
That's really good information. As far as Delta goes, you say many of them are prior SF veterans. I've seen it said that 70% of Delta recruits come from the Ranger Regiment, is that true?
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Old 10-15-2017, 13:09   #15
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good material... new information always welcome, I like to get as informed as I can
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