Old 02-10-2013, 00:47   #46
18ZULU
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When I went through Tng Gp (70-71) we were taught that A teams could be augmented by anyone we needed for an operation. For example, when my team went to St Vincent following the Grenada invasion, under Reagan, we took a leg E7 motor sergeant with us to train them on the vehicles we were providing them. He fit right in with the team, in fact we gave him a beret to wear to blend in. Another team had an E6 that did NOT fit in and gave them nothing but trouble. Conceiveably female personnel could be attached as needed. But we would not expect them to perform up to our standards.

This brings up the second point. The soldier's load. I don't understand why our troops are carrying the loads they are! We are not fighting in a jungle like we did in Vietnam where there was a chance we could hide from the enemy. (Actually the VC/NVA generally knew where our units were through their intel nets) While you can hide a small SF Recon (where I served) or LRRP team there is no way to hide a rifle company even in the jungle. We are currently fighting in the desert where visability is miles rather than meters. Helicopters can resupply almost daily. Why does a infantry unit carry a weeks worth on their backs? Your not hiding from anyone! It seems we are loading more and more weight on our soldier's backs for no real reason. Our soldiers are as tough as any and can live with a minimum of equipment and supplies. SF carries everything on their backs because we are behind enemy ljnes and do not expect resupply. But then our main mission is not hand to hand combat like the infantry!

This leads to my last point. Infantry is not just jumping out of an ambushed vehicle(s) with your rifle and web gear and fighting off an ambushing force then getting back in your truck and driving on. Infantry is WEEKS of foot slogging (even for the mech infantry) fighting an enemy just as tough and determined as you. Many men can't do this. I doubt one woman in a thousand can stand it. And you are right, they will lower the standards. Our infantry units will suffer as a result. Also who will carry the base plate in a mortar platoon? Just men? Who will carry the heavy anti-tank weapons/ammo? The extra mortar rounds? Just men? Thats not FAIR!!!!

PS: I actually met Katie Wilder on an exercise. She was an MI officer that briefed my team in isolation for a training mission. She did not do very well, BUT she had spent her entire career as a Protocol Officer before this assignment and had almost no experience as an MI officer. The story we got is that her daddy was a retired colonel and since there was nothing saying a woman couldn't go to the SFOC (SF Officer's Course) she got in. She was eliminated for cheating on the compass course. So were a number of men. The rub was that they reinstated the men but not her. So she got back in and finished the course. (SFOC was considered a fluff course by us enlisted that went through the "Q" course before they redid SF training in the mid to late 80s. As the 7th SFG(A) Training NCO I had some input on this).
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:01   #47
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According to the Army female height and weight standards a 5'4" woman 21-27 y.o. cannot weigh more than 147 lbs. How can a 147 lb. carry 85-125 lbs of equipment over rough terrain for several days? On top of that slide down a fastrope with that gear and have a CONTROLLED stop! Hell, I haven't seen a 147 lb SF troop in a long time.

DOL
But just think of the positives...we could roll her out the jump door with all the batteries and she might still be under the max weight of a MC-1C parachute.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:36   #48
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But just think of the positives...we could roll her out the jump door with all the batteries and she might still be under the max weight of a MC-1C parachute.
There you go! Always thinking.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:13   #49
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Originally Posted by 18ZULU View Post

This brings up the second point. The soldier's load. I don't understand why our troops are carrying the loads they are! We are not fighting in a jungle like we did in Vietnam where there was a chance we could hide from the enemy. (Actually the VC/NVA generally knew where our units were through their intel nets) While you can hide a small SF Recon (where I served) or LRRP team there is no way to hide a rifle company even in the jungle. We are currently fighting in the desert where visability is miles rather than meters. Helicopters can resupply almost daily. Why does a infantry unit carry a weeks worth on their backs? Your not hiding from anyone! It seems we are loading more and more weight on our soldier's backs for no real reason. Our soldiers are as tough as any and can live with a minimum of equipment and supplies. SF carries everything on their backs because we are behind enemy ljnes and do not expect resupply. But then our main mission is not hand to hand combat like the infantry!
Yes - we are doing some hiding where you won't be supplied for weeks. Also in the high mountain desert, W/x is often a problem for helicopter resupply.

And we're carrying more than "rations" - Radios, designators, BATTERIES, ammo, etc.. makes the weight add up quickly.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:15   #50
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Originally Posted by 18ZULU View Post
When I went through Tng Gp (70-71) we were taught that A teams could be augmented by anyone we needed for an operation. For example, when my team went to St Vincent following the Grenada invasion, under Reagan, we took a leg E7 motor sergeant with us to train them on the vehicles we were providing them. He fit right in with the team, in fact we gave him a beret to wear to blend in. Another team had an E6 that did NOT fit in and gave them nothing but trouble. Conceiveably female personnel could be attached as needed. But we would not expect them to perform up to our standards.

This brings up the second point. The soldier's load. I don't understand why our troops are carrying the loads they are! We are not fighting in a jungle like we did in Vietnam where there was a chance we could hide from the enemy. (Actually the VC/NVA generally knew where our units were through their intel nets) While you can hide a small SF Recon (where I served) or LRRP team there is no way to hide a rifle company even in the jungle. We are currently fighting in the desert where visability is miles rather than meters. Helicopters can resupply almost daily. Why does a infantry unit carry a weeks worth on their backs? Your not hiding from anyone! It seems we are loading more and more weight on our soldier's backs for no real reason. Our soldiers are as tough as any and can live with a minimum of equipment and supplies. SF carries everything on their backs because we are behind enemy ljnes and do not expect resupply. But then our main mission is not hand to hand combat like the infantry!

This leads to my last point. Infantry is not just jumping out of an ambushed vehicle(s) with your rifle and web gear and fighting off an ambushing force then getting back in your truck and driving on. Infantry is WEEKS of foot slogging (even for the mech infantry) fighting an enemy just as tough and determined as you. Many men can't do this. I doubt one woman in a thousand can stand it. And you are right, they will lower the standards. Our infantry units will suffer as a result. Also who will carry the base plate in a mortar platoon? Just men? Who will carry the heavy anti-tank weapons/ammo? The extra mortar rounds? Just men? Thats not FAIR!!!!

PS: I actually met Katie Wilder on an exercise. She was an MI officer that briefed my team in isolation for a training mission. She did not do very well, BUT she had spent her entire career as a Protocol Officer before this assignment and had almost no experience as an MI officer. The story we got is that her daddy was a retired colonel and since there was nothing saying a woman couldn't go to the SFOC (SF Officer's Course) she got in. She was eliminated for cheating on the compass course. So were a number of men. The rub was that they reinstated the men but not her. So she got back in and finished the course. (SFOC was considered a fluff course by us enlisted that went through the "Q" course before they redid SF training in the mid to late 80s. As the 7th SFG(A) Training NCO I had some input on this).

As referenced earlier.

This is a basic Rifleman's loadout from a study of a battalion in the 82nd.

This is all mission essential gear, IMHO. If the infantryman can't hump this load himself, someone else will have to.

I don't see a lot of fluff here. Very few, if any comfort or entertainment items.

This assumes a daily resupply of water, MREs, and ammo. Frankly, for a combat load, seven mags of 5.56 and one frag seems a little light to me.

Note that these are actual measured weights, from some very fit infantrymen from the 82nd, not some educated guess at what the guys were humping.

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Equipment Common to Riflemen:

A. Worn on Body/Uniform:

• M4 Carbine with PEQ-2 Laser/PAQ-4 Laser, ACOG/CCO, and 30 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition.
• Desert Camouflage Uniform with Infrared Tape on left sleeve (1”x1”).
• Desert Combat Boots.
• Dog Tags.
• ID Card.
• Undershirt.
• Socks.
• Tactical gloves.
• Interceptor Body Armor with two Small Arms Protective Inserts.
• Advanced Combat Helmet with night vision mounting plate.
• Rigger belt.
• Notebook and pen.
• Watch.
• Knee and elbow pads.
• Sun, Sand, and Dust type Goggles or Wiley-X Goggles.
• Folding Knife/Multi-tool.

B. Worn on Fighting Load Carrier/Interceptor Body Armor:

• MOLLE Fighting Load Carrier with modular MOLLE pouches.
• 180 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition.
• Bayonet.
• Fragmentation grenade.
• 64 ounces of water in two 1-quart canteens.
• 100 ounces of water in a hydration bladder.
• Casualty and witness cards.
• Flex cuffs for personnel under custody.
• Night vision equipment (PVS-14/PVS-7).
• Iodine tablets.
• Lensatic compass.
• Flashlight.
• Chemlight.
• First Aid dressing and pouch.
• Canteen Cup.
• Earplugs.

C. Carried in Assault Rucksack:

• MOLLE Assault Rucksack or commercial assault rucksack, with MOLLE attachments.
• 500ml intravenous fluids bag with starter kit.
• 70 ounces of water in a second hydration bladder.
• Two Meals, Ready to Eat (MREs).
• Poncho and/or Bivy Sack.
• Poncho liner.
• Undershirt.
• Spare batteries.
• Two pair of socks.
• Polypropylene or silk long sleeve undershirt.
• M4/M16 Rifle Cleaning Kit.
• Personal hygiene kit.
• Rubber gloves.
• Sling rope with two snap links.

D. Carried in Main Rucksack: (Main rucksacks were rarely taken on operations during study)

• MOLLE main rucksack with Sleeping Bag Carrier or Large ALICE rucksack.
• Modular Sleeping Bag (one bag per two men).
• Long Polypropylene Underwear of Fleece Jacket and Bibs.
• Two Undershirts.
• Two pairs of socks.
• Cold Weather Gloves.
• Knit/Fleece Cap.
• Additional ammunition.
• Two Meals, Ready to Eat (MREs).
• Sleeping pad.

Special Equipment:
• Lock pick (B).
• Collapsible Riot Baton (B).
• Bolt cutters (C or D).
• Metal detecting wand (C or D).
• 60mm mortar round (C or D).
• Combat Lifesaver Kit (C).
• Personnel Under Custody (PUC) Kit (sand bags, flex cuffs, trash bags, PUC cards, rubber gloves) (C).
• AT4 Anti-armor Weapon. (C or D).
• SMAW-D Bunker Defeat Weapon. (C or D).
• Hooligan Tool. (C or D).
• Sledgehammer. (C or D).
• Entrenching Tool. (C or D).
• M18 Claymore Mine. (C or D).
• Pole-less Litter. (C or D).
• 200 rounds of 5.56mm linked ammunition for M249 SAW. (C or D).

Fighting Load = A+B
Approach March Load = A+B+C
Emergency Approach March Load = A+B+C+D

Average Mission Duration: 48-72 hours

Resupply Items: Soldiers were resupplied with 2-3 MREs per day and up to 8 liters of water per day. When under fire, Soldiers could expect a resupply of their basic load of ammunition each day.

Duty Position: Rifleman

Average Fighting Load (lbs): 63.00 lbs

Average FL % Body Weight: 35.90%

Average Approach March Load (lbs): 95.67 lbs

Average AML % Body Weight: 54.72%

Average Emergency Approach March Load (lbs): 127.34 lbs

Average EAML % Body Weight: 71.41%
The environmental conditions were laid out earlier in this thread, but essentially, it is medium to high altitude desert in Afghanistan in the winter.

The basic rifleman is one of the lightest of the loads studied. Machine gunners and mortarmen carried significantly more weight.

I don't see too many women carrying this load for a week or more at the time, six to twelve months per rotation.

I would challenge anyone thinking about putting women under this load to actually don a ruck and gear totalling 127 pounds and try to walk 12 miles. I think that would illustrate the diffuivculty an infantryman faces better than any number of position papers.

TR
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:31   #51
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...I would challenge anyone thinking about putting women under this load to actually don a ruck and gear totalling 127 pounds and try to walk 12 miles. I think that would illustrate the diffuivculty an infantryman faces better than any number of position papers.

TR
WHAT HE SAID!!!
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:46   #52
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When I came out of the "Q", I was 155-160 lbs. Keep in mind that this was WAY before K-pocs, NVGs, Body Armor, etc!! Granted we were just beyond Bows & Arrows/Flintlocks, but my basic "On the Skid/Ladder/Rappel" Load was close to 200 lbs!! Of course, we did not plan on any resupply other than a "Drop Bag" when we really got into some fun times!! I can't imagine a Female carrying more than her own weight on flat ground much less in either High Plains Desert, or Jungle, Mountainous Terrain!!
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:12   #53
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and we complained about the steel pot...
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:21   #54
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and we complained about the steel pot...
We NEVER wore them, in fact, I do not even remember having one during my whole tour!! All that I ever ran with was an OD Cravat.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:44   #55
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Well, well

Mediocrity is the new "high standard'
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Old 02-11-2013, 16:30   #56
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We NEVER wore them, in fact, I do not even remember having one during my whole tour!! All that I ever ran with was an OD Cravat.
You guys were it, Bro.

I carried a 60 for a couple years in a Recon unit, and 600 rounds for it, usually-my ruck never weighed much more than a hundred, probably. I can't imagine running with 200 pounds in that heat.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:50   #57
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and we complained about the steel pot...
And now I collect em. Go figure.
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:50   #58
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18ZULU -
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PS: I actually met Katie Wilder on an exercise. She was an MI officer that briefed my team in isolation for a training mission. She did not do very well, BUT she had spent her entire career as a Protocol Officer before this assignment and had almost no experience as an MI officer. The story we got is that her daddy was a retired colonel and since there was nothing saying a woman couldn't go to the SFOC (SF Officer's Course) she got in. She was eliminated for cheating on the compass course. So were a number of men. The rub was that they reinstated the men but not her. So she got back in and finished the course. (SFOC was considered a fluff course by us enlisted that went through the "Q" course before they redid SF training in the mid to late 80s. As the 7th SFG(A) Training NCO I had some input on this).
Which exercise would that have been? Curious as I tried to get her captured during an exercise in which I was Controller/G-Chief/Grader. This particular exercise is also where I am accused of being the cause of 10th moving from Flint Kaserne, even though it took place years before the move.


STEEL POT!!! Only on jumps.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:26   #59
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Quote from Dollarbill:

"As long as all quailifications are met, I'd give it a whirl. One thing would have to be made clear up front. If I have to deal with any pre or post syndrome (cause God knows females have a boat load) all bets would be off. They'd have to be willing to move on. After all, a unit is just that."

That would be the issue. Standards WILL NOT be met. It has already been stated that they will be lowered to accomadate women. Secondly, not sure what you mean by post syndrome? However, good luck trying to remove somebody from a unit in today's environment.

I do not often agree with the current SGM of the Army. One of the few things we do agree on is that obeisity and out of shape soldiers is a critical issue today. Now we are going to make this issue WORSE by lowering physical standards in the combat arms.
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Old 02-15-2013, 18:56   #60
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I think our track record shows that this is going to happen eventually, and that voter demographics, not reason, will be the driving force. Having recently redeployed, my opinion of the CST program is that it isn't what was hoped for, but is instead what most of us expected. But as with the CST program, mounds of troubling evidence will not be shared or discussed, and the resulting capability will be the new high standard.
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