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Old 01-07-2018, 19:20   #1
RCummings
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SFG/UDT Randall Knife

Model 16 Diver Knife, A member of a Randall knife collectors club posted this knife. He is an admin and looking for further information. What follows is his text of information,

Below is a picture from a Model #16 Diver. It has an unlined thong hole and a seperate S stamp. That places it pretty tight between 1964 and 1968. The picture is of the shop etch on the back side of the blade.
"Ith. SFG / UDT"
The SFG is Special Forces Group
The UDT is Underwater Demolition Team. The UDT was the precursor to the Navy Seals.
My question surrounds the "Ith"
Do any of our Vets have any intel????
Thanks in advance.

Photograph follows in link,


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1&type=3&ifg=1

I do not know how to paste his photograph, the link is from the Facebook collectors closed group.

Respectfully,

Bob
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Old 01-07-2018, 19:50   #2
Astronomy
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Wild-assed guess...

1. The imprint is a mistake and was supposed to say "7th SFG / UDT"

2. "UDT" stood for Underwater Dive Team back in the olden days of Army SF...

My 1978 ordered Model 16 has my initials factory engraved. They managed to get those letters right. But accidents happen. Especially back in a non-digital day/age of handwritten customer order forms.

I'd be surprised if Randall doesn't have the original order for the blade (and requested engraving) on file somewhere.

(I didn't see the linked picture.)
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Old 01-07-2018, 20:27   #3
RCummings
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Thank you Astronomy!

Our small group has a historian from Randall. Records of the "mark" are not available.
Did the photograph not load? If this is the case I will try an alternative. I also have a Randall from the mid '60s and will compare the marking.

It seemed from the mark that some is missing for an unknown reason but, what was clear was the year of manufacture and an individual who claimed both SFG and UDT heritage enough to apply it to a Dive Model Randall.

The folks in this group do come up with some very obscure Randalls.

Respectfully,

Bob
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Old 01-07-2018, 21:12   #4
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26731150_10156044930412436_3845883364274037175_n.jpg
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Old 01-07-2018, 21:14   #5
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I hope the above photograph helps.

Respectfully,

Bob
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:23   #6
JJ_BPK
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Ith

Could be 7th or 1st??

Is the FB group Randall only or SF or UDT or pointy things ???
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:53   #7
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JJ BPK,

They are Randall only, a great group of gentlemen.

V/R

Bob
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:35   #8
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Ith. SFG/UDT doesn't make sense to me. Then again the A-Teams would have all sorts of stuff made for them so it could have been a team thing. Possible to see the entire knife?
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:55   #9
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I'll shoot that message. I was also interested in seeing more photographs. Get EMS ready for me trying to move the photos from FB to here...

Respectfully,

Bob
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:18   #10
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Mod 16 1st.jpg

mod 16 2nd.jpg
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:33   #11
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I think it’s an Old English take on one or first. As the the ‘first’ SFG/UDT.

1TH is the same as 1ST only it wouldn’t be confused with 1ST SFG(A).

When was the very first SF Underwater Dive Team authorized? Might be a clue to the origins of the knife which looks remarkably well. I don’t think any letters or inscription is missing. I’d also look at type face from the period and see why the larger space between SF G / UD T because it’s not a whole space but something the typewriter key set did. Looks “Times Roman” but not sure.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:45   #12
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ODNT,

Interesting take, I had not noticed and none of the comments mentioned what you observed. Would it be ok to forward your comment to the collectors site? I would copy and paste without anything except your text. I will wait for the official ok before doing anything.

V/R

Bob
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:56   #13
Old Dog New Trick
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Sure go ahead. I noticed that the TH were caps but smaller than the “I” or “1” when I googled 1TH it came with that use in old Cardinal numbers not Ordinal numbers which would use the correct 1ST (1st).
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:59   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
I think it’s an Old English take on one or first. As the the ‘first’ SFG/UDT.

1TH is the same as 1ST only it wouldn’t be confused with 1ST SFG(A).

When was the very first SF Underwater Dive Team authorized? Might be a clue to the origins of the knife which looks remarkably well. I don’t think any letters or inscription is missing. I’d also look at type face from the period and see why the larger space between SF G / UD T because it’s not a whole space but something the typewriter key set did. Looks “Times Roman” but not sure.
Now I'm confused. How the heck is 1TH the same as 1st? I was in 1st and never heard of 1TH. anywhere. And why the "." after the 1TH ? Looks to me as if something is abbreviated.

And why is 1TH. so far away from SFG/UDT ? If I ordered the knife it would read:

1st SFG(A) ODA-XXX UDT
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Old 01-08-2018, 13:19   #15
Old Dog New Trick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant View Post
Now I'm confused. How the heck is 1TH the same as 1st? I was in 1st and never heard of 1TH. anywhere. And why the "." after the 1TH ? Looks to me as if something is abbreviated.

And why is 1TH. so far away from SFG/UDT ? If I ordered the knife it would read:

1st SFG(A) ODA-XXX UDT
I don’t know Heffe. Only that 1TH. (even the period “.” is present) is an old and unused way to say 1ST. As in ‘Oneth’.

Do we know when the first Dive Team got created in SF? Do we even know if this instance of SFG means Special Forces Group and this use of SFG is something Navy speak?

I agree that if I had my Randall engraved it would say something about my ODA like you said. My knife looks like shit compared to this one so for a UDT knife it never saw salt water.
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Last edited by Old Dog New Trick; 01-08-2018 at 13:22.
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