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Old 05-09-2006, 19:00   #61
12B4S
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[QUOTE=Bill Harsey]Brad,
I'll assume your asking what steel this is and I don't know but I can ask the owner of Boker or his top knife designer over in Germany. Everyone knows what their competitor is doing.

I only knew the purpose of the Rockwell Hardness test, but now I know how it is done. Thanks. It would be interesting to know the type of steel but if itís a hassle itís donít bother Bill. What I was trying to find out, while trying to sharpen it a few months ago, was whether it was a double or single bevel edge. Iíve had it for some three decades and donít remember. Even looking through a magnifying glass itís hard to tell. Reason for that is because I have tried sharpening both sides. I began wondering if maybe it was designed and made with a single edge.
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Old 05-09-2006, 19:07   #62
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Brad,
If memory serves, the Puma Skinner had a nearly sharpened top edge for bone breaking when working on big game. It was designed to be turned over and used like an axe.
My thought is concentrate on the main master bevel for hunting uses, the top edge doesn't have the geometery to get sharp easily.
I've worked on those knives before.
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Old 05-09-2006, 21:18   #63
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That it does Bill. I'm just not using the right nomenclature. I mean the edge. Whether it it sharpend on one side or both sides of the blade.
Brad, Bill here, let me answer within your post. Understand now, sharpen the blade from each side. If a blade has been sharpened unevenly it may be hard for you to see in order to figure that out.
Does this answer your question?
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Last edited by Bill Harsey; 05-09-2006 at 21:25.
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Old 05-09-2006, 21:20   #64
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Caveman Status!

Hey Class! I almost forgot-
The Crucible Specialty Tool Steel metallurgists and management YEARS AGO named me the official "Caveman Testing Facility". Whenever they come up with something new, they send it to me for testing to see if it can be heat treated here, successfully. If it passes the "caveman test" they can go to market knowing virtually all machine shops can handle the steel well or have little excuse for not doing so.
Here's why I bring this up...
I'd thought I'd try and get "sooophisticated" on ya all and see if some research on alloying elements would be of any benefit to explaining this stuff to you here on this thread.
I quickly found so much empty or half complete information via Google that I came to my senses and we're gonna do it my way.

Next Installment: Tool Steel Alloys and what they do, caveman style

Last edited by Bill Harsey; 05-09-2006 at 21:29.
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Old 05-09-2006, 21:54   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
Hey Class! I almost forgot-
The Crucible Specialty Tool Steel metallurgists and management YEARS AGO named me the official "Caveman Testing Facility". Whenever they come up with something new, they send it to me for testing to see if it can be heat treated here, successfully. If it passes the "caveman test" they can go to market knowing virtually all machine shops can handle the steel well or have little excuse for not doing so.
Here's why I bring this up...
I'd thought I'd try and get "sooophisticated" on ya all and see if some research on alloying elements would be of any benefit to explaining this stuff to you here on this thread.
I quickly found so much empty or half complete information via Google that I came to my senses and we're gonna do it my way.

Next Installment: Tool Steel Alloys and what they do, caveman style
Yeah,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Caveman style, works for me, Let me go get my bigger hammer................

Thanks for the Thread BTW, Very enjoyable read..
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Old 05-10-2006, 07:58   #66
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The Good Stuff In Steel

Iron makes up most of "steel" but it is usually never mentioned in the chemical analysis or composition of added elements that make up tool steel alloys.

Tool steels are made and refined by several different processes but they all involve getting it very warm until liquid and then the alloys can be added to the melt.

This is done in amounts measured in tons at a time. I asked the Crucible steel guys if I could come help make steel sometime. They said no.

While a tool steel is molten samples are taken from the batch, cooled and tested for percentages of added elements. Adjustments are made on the fly.

Here are some of the alloys added to tool steels I know about, anyone notice anything a little unusual in the list?

Carbon
Chromium
Cobalt
Columbian(bium..., now called Niobium the last century or two)
Molybdenum
Manganese
Nickel
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Sulfur
Silicon
Tungsten
Vanadium

Some of these strengthen the matrix, some make carbides and some do both.
There are other reasons that alloys are added to steel, like for example, improving the steels ability to cool down from the initial melt without massive segregation of alloys.

Last edited by Bill Harsey; 05-11-2006 at 13:45. Reason: redneck knifemaker spelling error, Thanks TR.
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:51   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
Here are some of the alloys added to tool steels I know about, anyone notice anything a little unusual in the list?

Carbon
Chromium
Cobalt
Columbian
Molybdenum
Manganese
Nickel
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Sulfur
Silicon
Tungsten
Vanadium
Bill:

Don't want to ruin your alloying here, but if you put your Columbian in the steel, he (or she) is going to scream and flop about before ruining the steel.

I had no idea human sacrifice was a part of steel making any more.

You Oregon boys have all of the tricks.

TR
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Old 05-10-2006, 13:12   #68
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TR,
Our carbon comes from a different source and I don't think I've ever used a steel with Columbian in it.

Look at the list again, aren't alloys supposed to be a solid?
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Old 05-10-2006, 13:22   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
TR,
Our carbon comes from a different source and I don't think I've ever used a steel with Columbian in it.

Look at the list again, aren't alloys supposed to be a solid?

I am completely out of my lane here, but could the Nitrogen come from the Liquid Nitrogen that you referred to earlier in this thread?
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Old 05-10-2006, 13:31   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air.177
I am completely out of my lane here, but could the Nitrogen come from the Liquid Nitrogen that you referred to earlier in this thread?
Air.177, you have the correct stuff but not at that stage.

In some steels (like the ones we use) Nitrogen is injected into the melt and it reacts at the molecular level with the steel.

Anyone guess what it forms?
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Old 05-10-2006, 13:39   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
Anyone guess what it forms?
When nitrogen is heated, it combines directly with lithium, magnesium, and calcium, and when mixed with oxygen, it forms nitric acid then nitrogen dioxide. I believe large quantities of nitrogen are used to anneal stainless steel IIRC.
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Old 05-10-2006, 14:53   #72
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Originally Posted by Maytime
When nitrogen is heated, it combines directly with lithium, magnesium, and calcium, and when mixed with oxygen, it forms nitric acid then nitrogen dioxide. I believe large quantities of nitrogen are used to anneal stainless steel IIRC.
To the best of my knowledge there is no lithium, magnesium, calcium or oxygen in the melt when making the CPM steel that Nitrogen is used in.

Last edited by Bill Harsey; 05-10-2006 at 15:23.
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Old 05-10-2006, 16:37   #73
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Bill,
Are you talking about the use of a high pressure jet of N2 to produce the fine particles of extremely homogenious material that Crucible uses?!?!
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Old 05-10-2006, 16:56   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambush Master
Bill,
Are you talking about the use of a high pressure jet of N2 to produce the fine particles of extremely homogenious material that Crucible uses?!?!
That is in use too but I'm not sure that's how it gets in the mix.

The result of the nitrogen content are Nitrides which are like carbides.

Laying all my cards on the table face up for this one question, the process by which it's done is at the very least proprietary if not "classified" a little higher.

They won't tell me how it's done.
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Old 05-10-2006, 18:47   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
That is in use too but I'm not sure that's how it gets in the mix.

The result of the nitrogen content are Nitrides which are like carbides.

Laying all my cards on the table face up for this one question, the process by which it's done is at the very least proprietary if not "classified" a little higher.

They won't tell me how it's done.
Bill,

I think that they are hiding it right out in the open!!!

Nitriding is a "Case Hardening" process, ie Surface, and if these nitrides are throughout the material, it is getting there during the atomization of the molten material. When the resultant particles are placed into the container, sealed, and then hot isostatically pressed, the N2 that is present in the droplets has no place to go and remains as an integral part of the mix!!!

Later
Martin
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