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Old 08-17-2017, 21:05   #31
Penn
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You call them jags, I call them marplots.
JAGS=Lawyers

Law Schools, almost all, teach, advocate, restraints. If you need a go/no go mission authorization via a JAG O, its a no go for you. His training as a legal official and reluctant Mil/O, is a personal risk/reward scenario.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:11   #32
Old Dog New Trick
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This could go in both...

Exclusive: US Navy ships in deadly collisions had dismal training records - CNN
https://apple.news/Ak7wLimutT2WHn4Ux9CfXRg

Now tell us something we don't know about why this happened since 2015? And yes, I'm sure it went all the way to the top (somewhere above SecNav?)

Thing I don't get though is if you are doing your job isn't that 'training' (OJT) and the problem is not correcting training deficiencies but rubber stamping the process?
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:54   #33
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Certification and Training? Didn't have enough officers back at base to conduct it?

I remember certification training back in the day but that was because we were away from our MOS duties and doing stuff like post support.

But when you're on a ship aren't you doing your job every day? If you're manning the helm wasn't at some point someone senior to you checking you out to make sure you're doing it right? Same for every other manual job?

Electronics? Don't they have a program they can run simulations through? Damage control?

Starting to sound like a bunch of sailors don't know their jobs.
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Old 09-11-2017, 14:45   #34
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JMHO, sirs, but there's no damned excuse for the poor material condition, readiness, or training in the 7th Fleet AOR. While all the attention is currently on the four individual ships that either ran into the planet or into other ships, there is a legitimate concern for every other class of ship in the Navy including CVNs, aircraft, SSNs, and MSC (resupply ships). The Fleet leadership failed; rather it was allowed to fail from poor oversight. Yes, sir, the root cause goes up the chain and back for years, and there's not any person (military or civilian) in that COC who is free of blame.

As an observer, QP warriors and the QP culture is not necessarily exempt but are surely blessed because they focus the marrow of their spirit on the individual and the team, and they accept good training and readiness of both the individual and the team as totally unacceptable. They only accept excellence in training and excellence in readiness, and that's one of the cornerstones of the QP community. Leadership in some of the other communities is also superior for the rank-and-file, such as in the aviation community (spare parts notwithstanding), submarines, rescue swimmers, etc. The unfortunate majority of our military can't always depend on excellent or even superior leadership. Often leaders are strong, maybe even superior, but they're mixed in with slack or even piss-poor leaders. More than once I worked for an immediate superior who was a great leader but the next step up the guy was useless. A lot of it, too, depends on the person being led and their willingness to follow the example and doing all they can to meet the challenge.

And another thing: DoD and the Navy years ago bought into reduced manning and automated systems, and their acquisitions processes were turned over to industry such as Northrup-Grumman and Lockheed-Martin. That was a mistake for the motive shifted from effective service to complete specific mission areas and toward profit and business growth. Maintenance responsibility shifted from ships force to contractors. The bean-counters prevailed and the warriors suffered.

It's a culture problem, too. Military commanders when given an order stand up and say, "Aye-aye", and then do their damndest to complete the mission. That's fine if the leadership and training are sound, and the equipment is up-sweet-and-hot. It grieves me to say it for I dearly love my Navy, but it was failed by its own leadership and America was failed in the process. No damned excuse. None.

JMHO.
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Old 09-11-2017, 19:08   #35
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Larry, you are correct in saying it's a cultural problem but it's been a culture that allows sub-standard performance to go unchecked.

Part of the problem and this is military wide is trying to accept, promote and enforce a culture that is wholly incompatible with military service. The last SecDef and all the minions under him pushed social agendas and policies ahead of sound judgment and ethics.

The military lost and it cost lives.
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Old 09-11-2017, 19:32   #36
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Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Larry, you are correct in saying it's a cultural problem but it's been a culture that allows sub-standard performance to go unchecked.

Part of the problem and this is military wide is trying to accept, promote and enforce a culture that is wholly incompatible with military service. The last SecDef and all the minions under him pushed social agendas and policies ahead of sound judgment and ethics.

The military lost and it cost lives.

The most concerning angle is wondering how much senior military leaders changed how they think and behave after the social rebuilding that went on under the last administration. Senior leaders that went to advanced schooling under the last administration learned that wonderful skill known as "critical thinking" but they forgot to pay attention during the class about speaking truth to power.

The questions that nag at me are:
-which leaders are silently loyal to the outgoing administration and their agenda
-which leaders are silently supportive of the current administration's agenda
-which ones are going to be the most willing to play the long game on behalf of the USA instead of taking on a career as a Militician

We live in interesting times
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:03   #37
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Originally Posted by Box View Post
The questions that nag at me are:
-which leaders are silently loyal to the outgoing administration and their agenda
-which leaders are silently supportive of the current administration's agenda
-which ones are going to be the most willing to play the long game on behalf of the USA instead of taking on a career as a Militician

We live in interesting times
Yes, sir. The deepest questions when going to a new command or being on the receiving end of a change of command is, "What is it going to be like working for this guy?" In submarines one wonders what this guy looks like when he's scared, or really pissed off. Those kinds of things affect everybody on a boat when you're at 400 feet and spring a leak. (I'm a diesel boat sailor and don't do stuff below 400 feet. Just saying...)

In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.

Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:12   #38
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In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.

Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
Hasn't or isn't that being done? Now if the new incoming 'leadership' is complacent or oblivious than sure sack them too.

While it may be totally unrealistic I'd ground (pun unintended) any ship that isn't currently staffed and certified and begin remedial training to reach certification. If a ship must continue deployments order redundant redundancy of all critical navigation and control systems.
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Old 09-12-2017, 14:18   #39
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Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Hasn't or isn't that being done? Now if the new incoming 'leadership' is complacent or oblivious than sure sack them too.

While it may be totally unrealistic I'd ground (pun unintended) any ship that isn't currently staffed and certified and begin remedial training to reach certification. If a ship must continue deployments order redundant redundancy of all critical navigation and control systems.
Yes, sir, many have bought the career farm (not enough, IMHO) but we still have the same Temp-SECNAV, CNO, Fleet Commanders (both LANT and PAC) and the Surface Force Commanders (LANT and PAC).

Yes, sir, tie the ships to the pier until ALL are fully certified in ALL required areas, especially seamanship, navigation, and damage control. But, who will certify them? The Marx Brothers? The problem is sourced to a failure in leadership, and it trickles down through logistics, maintenance, training, and material condition.

Who was it said "Amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics"? Sherman, I think. (Dad-gummed Army, anyway!)
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Old 09-12-2017, 14:22   #40
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Yes, sir. The deepest questions when going to a new command or being on the receiving end of a change of command is, "What is it going to be like working for this guy?" In submarines one wonders what this guy looks like when he's scared, or really pissed off. Those kinds of things affect everybody on a boat when you're at 400 feet and spring a leak. (I'm a diesel boat sailor and don't do stuff below 400 feet. Just saying...)

In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.

Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
That no US submarines have been lost leads me to believe that the submarine force continues to emphasize training and equipment maintenance. As LarryW said there is something about 400 or more feet of water over your head to make you pay attention. I've been in some butt puckering situations under the sea, but never doubted the captain and crew's ability to fight the boat and control everything but a catastrophic casualty.

It seems the surface fleet needs to get back to understanding that every minute you are responsible for the lives of the ship and its crew, just as the rest of the crew is responsible for your life. It's real and not a video game that you can just reset and start over.
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Old 09-12-2017, 15:05   #41
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It's real and not a video game that you can just reset and start over.
+1 Just had a glimmer of a cartoon idea flash across the brain, in which a ship has hit something and, in making the report, some staffling/staffette ashore inquires, "Well, did you reboot?"
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