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Old 10-30-2013, 13:18   #16
ZonieDiver
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Now the big question, which movie was better ???

1) Tombstone
2) Wyatt Earp
3) My Darling Clementine
4) Gunfight at the O.K. Corral
You have the order correct there, SDiver.

Tombstone is a mere shadow of the 'fun place' it used to be in the early to mid-70s.

As to 'historical accuracy' in either, well, it helps to the one who lived the longest and wrote the most about it... as Wyatt did.

When my HS history students would ponder why we should study history, this event was one I would mention. It lasted mere seconds, took place over 100 years ago, and people still argue vehemently about it today.
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Old 10-31-2013, 16:10   #17
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I vote for "My Darling Clementine" just for the cast if nothing else-

Henry FXXXa, Linda Darnell, Victor Mature, Tim Holt, Walter Brennan, Ward Bond, Roy Roberts, Alan Mowbray and John Ireland to name a few...

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Old 10-31-2013, 19:39   #18
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The Bird Cage hadn't been built at the time of the shootout and the Crystal Palace was called the Golden Eagle Brewing Co. then. I think that, since the town has frozen itself in that era, the city council has probably asked the all references to Tombstone during that period use the names of the current businesses to help tourism. The locals really get into the re-enactment everyday. While there are paid actors that roam around the town, the citizens also enjoy dressing up and going about in 1880s clothing.

I enjoy going there (and I don't like touristy places) but I wished that they had some sort of emblem or indicator that one is a local so as not to get hassled by the guys pushing the haunted Tombstone tours.

Pat
I've visited there several times. I also liked Ft. Bowie, nothing like I imagined it would be. I liked the trail signs en-route to the fort," Rattlesnakes have right of way".
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Old 10-31-2013, 20:48   #19
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I've visited there several times. I also liked Ft. Bowie, nothing like I imagined it would be. I liked the trail signs en-route to the fort," Rattlesnakes have right of way".
Haven't been to Ft. Bowie yet, but we've hiked to several "off the tourist map" ruins. My wife is a volunteer at the San Pedro House which is a BLM attraction and the local ranger has given her directions to several "unknown" sites. We have what looks like a grave a couple of hundred yards from our property. She asked the ranger what it was and he said that it probably was a grave. He told her that they are everywhere around here. It's different here.

ETA: Johnny Ringo died not far from Ft. Bowie. The Tombstone movie shootout with Doc Holiday never happened. Doc was on trial in Pueblo, CO, at the time. The death was ruled a suicide, but it could have been staged. The "shootout" families are still represented here and I'd not be surprised if another one happens.

Pat
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Old 10-31-2013, 22:35   #20
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Originally Posted by ZonieDiver
Tombstone is a mere shadow of the 'fun place' it used to be in the early to mid-70s.
True. Back then the Snow Birds didn't flock here as much. We're high desert and still get the cold and snow, but there are several more RV parks here now so the Winter months are still considered the tourist season. When I was stationed here in 1970, the Summer tourists didn't stay locally so when we went to the Crystal Palace on the weekend nights there were only locals in the bar.

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As to 'historical accuracy' in either, well, it helps to the one who lived the longest and wrote the most about it... as Wyatt did.
Plus he was a movie technical advisor in Hollywood!

Pat
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Old 11-01-2013, 16:10   #21
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ETA: Johnny Ringo died not far from Ft. Bowie. The Tombstone movie shootout with Doc Holiday never happened. Doc was on trial in Pueblo, CO, at the time. The death was ruled a suicide, but it could have been staged.

Pat
Here's Johnny Ringo's grave near the Chiricahua Mountains and the suspected grave I found near our property.

The BLM Ranger said that the Apaches did bury their dead in this manner. Also, that a soldier would have been returned to the fort and cowboy would be buried near a trail, if possible (like Ringo was since he died so far from his home). Illegals would want the body found so it would be placed near a road or highway. A drug mule would just be left for the buzzards.
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Old 10-07-2018, 21:29   #22
WarriorDiplomat
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Here's Johnny Ringo's grave near the Chiricahua Mountains and the suspected grave I found near our property.

The BLM Ranger said that the Apaches did bury their dead in this manner. Also, that a soldier would have been returned to the fort and cowboy would be buried near a trail, if possible (like Ringo was since he died so far from his home). Illegals would want the body found so it would be placed near a road or highway. A drug mule would just be left for the buzzards.
The old stories especially of the old west requires serious detective work to find the truth...Growing up in AZ, Nebraska and mostly Dodge City until my late 20's I call it my home town where my kids were born, married my wife and attended Central School, Dodge City Junior High and Dodge City Senior High Schools, Boot Hill cemetery the original is next to the new recreation of front street Boothill museum, Gunsmoke is the original front street, where the big john longhorn is the west was always a part of my life my dad had one hell of a library and we visited the spots....Las Vegas New Mexico, El Paso Colorados legendary mining camps, Deadwood S.D., Little Big Horn, Laramie, Cheyenne, Tombstone etc....

The biggest letdown was how Wyatt Earp was glorified into a great lawman of the west but to really learn about the Earps through court docs, newspaper articles, the boxing community he was not the model of a good man by any stretch....from Missouri to Wichita to Dodge City to Tombstone then to California to Colorado to Alaska and finally where he died in Los Angeles. He was the quintessential con artists and slimy criminal of his era into the 20th. He was not near the prominent lawman of Dodge City actually men like the Bill Tilghman Jr, Charlie Basset, the Mastersons etc...where the real badasses of the lawless west and Dodge City area but because of the constant self promotion of Wyatt Earp and Josephine his common law wife the town of Dodge could never really dedicate its prominent streets etc...after the true legends that built the town in which the drovers were kept under control from the Santa Fe Trail, Chisolm Trail etc....that all lead into Dodge the Queen of the cowtowns. Men like Chalky Beeson is relegated to a road outside of South Dodge City that I grew up drag racing on we called it Beeson Int'l raceway the main drag was Wyatt Earp Blvd...not because he was a great settler of Dodge City who rode out the rough years year after year in fact he was a part time town Marshall during cattle drive season for three short years...the naming of the main street highway 50 that runs through Dodge after Earp was obviously a business decision based off his fame certainly not off merit.

Wyatt Earp was well known for exploiting people, stealing money, scamming citizens as Marshall, fixing boxing matches for personal gain for example as referee of the famous Fitzimmons-Sharkey Heavyweight World title fight where he declared Sharkey who was clearly faking a low blow the victor of the fight and Fitz the loser by disqualification....he left California to go to Alaska in which his criminal notoriety was so vast that he was met of the dock by the Sherriff of the City and was disarmed his gun is still there hanging with his name on it labelled as unclaimed....to be fair it must be noted that it was not uncommon for men of the time to float in between legitimate work, criminal activities and lawman frequently...however following Earps paper trail he was not the honorable man depicted in film. In fact his reputation was not changed until he had gotten old and was hanging around movie studios in Hollywood telling tall tales of his exploits contrary to truth. He could never even keep his story straight of what type of gun he had used at the OK corral...the gun that has been accused of being the gun based of Earps story telling does not match the evidence and eyewitness accounts of a gun that he carried in his coat pocket not his holster since holsters in the old west were rarely worn in towns by most people of the era but normally by cattle drovers to fend off coyotes, rattlesnakes etc....the laws of the towns to surrender guns to the Marshall were generally cattle towns since cattle wranglers and drovers usually came into the towns after months of living on the ranges and got drunk and shot everything other than them most people never carried weapons.

The stories of the Gunfight at the OK corral are based off newspaper accounts and eyewitness as well as the court documents to determine if the fight was legal....it happened not actually in the corral but down the street the fight was named after the nearest known landmark. The story and movies add some conjecture into how the vendetta ride happened but it is unknown to what really happened and how many were killed. Wyatt Earps legend seems to have been a money making adventure with a fictional retelling of his greatness as a lawman the Hollywood screen writers saw gold the rest is history. The stories are great the movies made us fall in love with the legend of the west. More to follow on Wyatt Earp later
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Old 10-07-2018, 21:54   #23
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The stories are great the movies made us fall in love with the legend of the west. More to follow on Wyatt Earp later

When Earp was in L.A. he actually worked as a technical advisor on movies. He helped define his own legend. There is still an Earp/Clanton divide here. Plus, the Earps were Union and the Clantons were Rebels.
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Old 10-08-2018, 00:42   #24
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Warrior D. you tell a good tale about our history. For anyone interested in some truth about some of the real badass gunfighters of the old west, please look to an author named Glenn Shirley. Most of his tales are about Indian Territory (Oklahoma) but more especially about the outlaws (Doolin-Dalton's) and the lawmen (Bill Tighlman and all the other US Marshalls) who have made our history books.
For those of you that read, Mr. Shirley has definitely done his homework.
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Old 10-08-2018, 05:06   #25
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Warrior D. you tell a good tale about our history. For anyone interested in some truth about some of the real badass gunfighters of the old west, please look to an author named Glenn Shirley. Most of his tales are about Indian Territory (Oklahoma) but more especially about the outlaws (Doolin-Dalton's) and the lawmen (Bill Tighlman and all the other US Marshalls) who have made our history books.
For those of you that read, Mr. Shirley has definitely done his homework.
Interesting to see this thread back. There does seem to be the taint of self-promotion in how the "history" determines who is regarded as noteworthy. I also wouldn't mind seeing a chronicle of men like Tilghman, Heck Thomas, Chris Madsen et al. If those guys or their colleagues got after you, you may as well just lay-up and wait for 'em to arrive & come along peaceable-like. Serious hombres, without the grifting.

If I ever cut loose from current duties & get back down Pat's way in a non-TDY situation I'd like to spend some more time exploring that area though.
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:14   #26
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"Tombstone"

When does anyone quote Doc Holliday from "Wyatt Earp."
Any western with Sam Elliot is better than one without him in the cast.
The cast of Tombstone overall much better....Charlton Heston, Powers Boothe, Billy Bob Thornton among others.
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Old 10-08-2018, 23:42   #27
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"Tombstone"

When does anyone quote Doc Holliday from "Wyatt Earp."
Any western with Sam Elliot is better than one without him in the cast.
The cast of Tombstone overall much better....Charlton Heston, Powers Boothe, Billy Bob Thornton among others.
I agree I wish they hadn't taken creative license on the vendetta ride and kept the story to what they know with a 90% certainty but if I remember right Tombstone the fight itself was recreated in that movie off eyewitness accounts of how it happened...I never cared for Kevin Costners version though from historical descriptions his passionless style sounds more Wyatt Earp-ish
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