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Old 06-09-2009, 18:15   #1
180A
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INCENTIVE PAY FOR ALL

Does anyone know or has anyone heard about a proposed incentive pay that is coming down the pipe in 2010? I heard it will be implemented at the end of 2010.
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:44   #2
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I have been hearing rumors of this since the better half got to group.... but so far nada. Last I heard the powers that be were fighting over which budget was going to get hit with the price tag. They may have resolved that, but I haven't heard anything official yet.

However, when/if it is kicking in... I'll take it
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Old 06-10-2009, 13:30   #3
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You know what's crazy. I was speaking to a Subarine Warfare Qualified Naval officer (O-4) yesterday and he told me that he gets an incentive pay of $30K a year - on top of base pay - for remaining "in contract" within the Submarine Warfare community. He told me that this also applied for Naval Air as well as Naval Special Warfare types. He let me look at his LES and he also receives a sort of "proficiency pay" that totals about $750 per month (I think our SF NCOs get that much, or am I wrong on that). Anyway, it made me wonder, why it took so long to get the guys demo pay and why it is so hard to enact "across the board" incentive pay when this kind of money is thrown around in DOD. Some may think that CSRB is extravagant at nearly $150K, but, when SMs are receiving $30K per year for staying in a particular "community" (their lingo for "branch"), CSRB seems like nothing to be surprised at.
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Old 06-10-2009, 15:14   #4
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Pay

I have only heard this, but it has to do with the number of personnel they employ in those units, compared to the number we have. That does not explain the fact of why QP's don't deserve more.

my .02 cents
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Old 06-11-2009, 16:51   #5
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I will contact Miss Wolf out at SOCOM. She is the CW3 that told us in 2007 that we would be getitng demo pay in the near future. She was right on that, so if anyone knows, then she probably will.
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Old 06-11-2009, 16:57   #6
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I'm just curious - for what incentive might this new pay be awarded?

Richard's $.02
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Old 06-11-2009, 18:50   #7
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I'm just curious - for what incentive might this new pay be awarded?

Richard's $.02
Sort of like a pro pay. Mostly I think it is an incentive not to get out to contract.
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Old 06-11-2009, 19:26   #8
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Wasn't the $$ that kept me in - have things really changed that much?

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Old 06-11-2009, 19:37   #9
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I suppose that depends on the QP. Some are in it for their brothers and because they love what they do regardless of pay. Some are in it for their brothers and because they love what they do, but see the six figures being offered by contracting companies and have four or five kids to put through college... well even on an E8 salary that can be tough. NOTE: I am not judging anyone. Just saying that when a man has a wife and kids to take care of finances do play a part in the equation. Some get frustrated with the constraints of the Army and want more of a free hand. There are as many reasons for getting out or staying in as their are QPs as I suspect there has always been.
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Old 06-11-2009, 20:40   #10
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Wasn't the $$ that kept me in - have things really changed that much?

Richard's $.02

There were no good alternatives paying $500-$1000 per day back then, and a force begging to keep people in either.

I suspect that this will come to a head when the 18Xs they have built their hopes on exit at better than 80%. IMHO, many of the guys we are selecting are not the ones we really want. More is not always better.

Consider also that we are on OEF XIII already, and an SF plus-up coming, with no end in sight.

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Old 06-11-2009, 21:48   #11
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For some SFG's this is not the SF of 10 years ago where teams deployed for 3-weeks to somewhere in the Carribean teaching the indig army every other day and came home with a fist full of cash; high OPTEMPO pay, $150/day per diem, etc... if you have BTDT, you probably know what I am talking about.

Today, on some teams, you had better be a barrel-chested, steely-eyed, lead-slinging and knuckle-draggin' freedom fighter. You are going to go to one of the biggest shitholes on the planet. There will be no hotels to sleep in, no beaches to lay out on and T&A means something completely different (toes n ankles). The guys you are replacing said "it's dangerious out there sarge," and quit conducting ops 2 months prior to your arrival. The enemy is going to be so far up your ass that the only white space you have is inside your OPCEN. You are going to kit up every day and go out there and beat them off your wire. You are going to pressure, pursue and punish them. In some cases you will kill so many enemy that the senior leadership is going to ask you to stop. The only response is, "when they stop shooting at me, I will stop shooting at them." Today, teams are doing this over and over and over without a letting up. They come home for a few months and go straight into training only to deploy again. My average is 60-days home a year and I know of guys who are on there 9th combat deployment. As one team sergeant said, "you guys are some of the hardest men I have ever known. I only have to do this once, but you will have to keep coming here over and over."

Incentives come and go for various reasons. Right now it is about how do we keep these guys. Yes, we could fight this war with "nothing but M16A1's and LBE's" attitude, but what are the reprecutions of that?

18X's pretty much come around or they don't stay around. Most of the guys who reenlist are just as good as any other guy. Should see a better batch coming through the pipeline now that there is a change in leadership/direction. One of the first SFAS's under his wing had something like 26 soldiers selected.
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:30   #12
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That question is part of the answer...

The question asking why is incentive pay necessary. Our senior command doesn't get it either, that is, why do we need incentives..."In my day no one ETS'd." That's right SGM, and in your day guys got money out the ass and maybe shot at once in their career. Burying your friends has a way of taking the sizzle out of a bonus.
So does a Command team who fails to make their unit a place you want to stay. There are simply too many damn good deals out there to stay somewhere that sucks, and when the NG units have a better Command environment than AD, guess where lotsa fellas go? I'd love to see a study on how many 18X are now NG!!!
For the record the Army usually stifles already federally approved funds for these pays, for instance, the approved Warrant Officer ascessions bonus is 60k, and Seals get it, but DA cut SF down to 20k.
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Old 06-12-2009, 17:09   #13
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I'm going to try and articulate this as diplomatically as possible because I have already had an experience with a thin-skinned senior NCO on this forum and I don't want to slight anyone that I share space with in this community. Plus, that is not my intention anyway.

Others have arrived at this same juncture on this very same thread already, so what I'm writing here is not earth shattering.

In the last three years I have received serious offers on the "outside" (civilian) world not having anything to do with security companies that deploy folks overseas. I have been offered yearly pay on the high side of $80K/year on two of them, and the last one was at six figures per year. I did not even spend ten seconds considering them. I enjoy my job too much.

HOWEVER, I do have a family.

Three years ago, as fate would have it, I missed death by merely 34 linear feet but lost four comrades in the same attack. I, along with three other QPs, and an FBI HRT agent along for the ride, picked up what was left of them while being in the middle of a 7 1/2 hour ordeal where we were denied MEDEVAC because the LZ was too hot (I don't blame them; it was). The next day, it was Valentine's Day back in CONUS; my wife did not hear from me for four days. But, other wives would never see their husbands alive again. By the way, when those men died, six children were made fatherless.

Chances are that I, like many others have done before me, will miss many one-time events in my children's lives because of my commitment to the teams. I have already sacrificed one marriage as a direct result of my personal lack of balance - at the time - between my desire to be the "first guy to volunteer" and to actually be present at home, even when I'm in CONUS (I've since fixed that deficiency).

In the time I was deployed, I saw four of our men die before me, and received the broken remains of an additional three in subsequent three months (I identified their bodies at the morgue each time and did all the paperwork so no one else in the unit had to experience that unnecessarily). Two other men died when I left country to see my dying father, who died shortly after I returned to CONUS - from cancer. To this day, there are feelings in the family that I "just was not there when he needed me". As, I was later told, he constantly asked for me. When I received the Red Cross message at the FOB, I refused to leave because we were about to execute the largest operation in-country in years with other SOF from the coalition and I did not want to leave when the unit needed me the most. I almost had to beg the Battalion Commander to let me stay a bit longer. I did stay. At the time, because of what I had experienced there, I felt that I could not improve my father's condition by seeing him, but that maybe I could help the operation go well and, perhaps, help save lives. To this day, I am split on the appropriateness of my decision in light of so many other variables.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING: I represent little, in terms of sacrifice, when compared to the rest of the QPs in the force that have completed two or three more rotations than I have. Men that left the gate just 48 hours after watching their brothers blown-up and/or shot and bleed out. I wish I was a multi-billionaire so that I could give them all some "incentive" pay.

I might have the ability to exit the inherently dangerous and unpredictable world of SOF because of my educational background and/or people I know outside. But, so many QPs have spent their younger years earning "masters" and "doctorates" in Special Operations and are locked into this world of ours. They may not even want an option out because they desire to remain loyal to the brotherhood - it defines who they are.

Call me crazy, but I think that deserves something other than a pat on the back. How about giving these guys an opportunity to get the best education for their children? Or, the ability to buy into better neighborhoods to live in. If pilots flying at 30,000 feet seem to deserve "incentive" for their tremendous feats of flying expertise, I would imagine that the men "in the arena" deserve it too.

I don't think I would ever have the temerity to question a QPs loyalty to the brotherhood because they seek a better quality of life for their family in light of their sacrifices. My opinion is that such an assumption is completely inappropriate in light of what WE KNOW they sacrifice EVERY DAY.
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Old 06-12-2009, 18:19   #14
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Originally Posted by troy2k View Post
The question asking why is incentive pay necessary. Our senior command doesn't get it either, that is, why do we need incentives..."In my day no one ETS'd." That's right SGM, and in your day guys got money out the ass and maybe shot at once in their career. Burying your friends has a way of taking the sizzle out of a bonus.
So does a Command team who fails to make their unit a place you want to stay. There are simply too many damn good deals out there to stay somewhere that sucks, and when the NG units have a better Command environment than AD, guess where lotsa fellas go? I'd love to see a study on how many 18X are now NG!!!
For the record the Army usually stifles already federally approved funds for these pays, for instance, the approved Warrant Officer ascessions bonus is 60k, and Seals get it, but DA cut SF down to 20k.
I don't wish anyone presently serving NOT receive any and all money they can for their service. I hope that these bonuses are spread to any and all who may earn them. However, in "my" day they were filling a hell of a lot of body bags on a very regular basis. There were NO bonuses, or very small bonuses, for combat MOS's such as 11B /11C/12B etc. That is not why people volunteered, enlisted, re-enlisted, or stayed. It was much more than simply that.

It has to be much more than simply that...
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Old 06-12-2009, 18:46   #15
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PRO Pay is supposed to go away. And you will be payed for the time you have in SF ie. 650 a month for your first three years in SF and then something like 1000 after that. You have to serve in an 18Series slot. It is supposed to go to all even 180As and 18As. Miss. Wolf put out in 2007 that we would be getting demo pay and it came down the pipe. If she put this out then it is most likely going to happen. And why not incentive pay? SF is deployed a hell of a lot more today than in the 80s and 90s. Seals get incentive pay and they are maxed out. Why wouldn't SF soldiers deserve it? I know it's not always about the pay, but if they are going to bring it up and pay it, then WHY NOT? We may be able to keep a lot more guys who are getting out and working contract work. In my company, we lost several guys to contract companies and a good medic on my team. I think the guys deserve it, and because Sr Officers don't get it, well they had their chance to attend SFAS just like the rest of us. I say pay it.
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