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Old 12-09-2016, 19:35   #1
Bettendorf
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How does one initiate an ambush?

How does one initiate an ambush?

I was taught that one would one would use the heaviest casualty-producing weapon (ie Claymore) but it the absence of said ability, what would it be?

Apparently, the Marine Corps teaches that a closed-bolt weapon (M16-M4) does the job. I guess operated by a leader.

Thanks.
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Old 12-09-2016, 23:51   #2
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Old School..

If the target was of unknown size, We use trip flares and claymores in a stand off mode (1K),, give them 3-4 minutes to recover and call in pre-marked artillery, wait a hour and go count coup..

If it's a small team(3-5) and small target,, sit and wait until you see the whites of their eyes,, with predesignated signal, like a trip/smoke/wp flare. Having something that calls the target attention away from you, can give you 10-20 seconds of surprise time to unload hell..

My $00.00002
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:54   #3
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I can see where the corps would say that... I've heard this before, mainly to avoid a bad situation where initiating with an open bolt machine gun goes wrong and the enemy hears a CLACK!, and none of your guys shoot.

I think that, if you have something else, the rule of thumb about most casualty producing weapon applies. The only "ambush" I ever did was kind of nonstandard, where the enemy was moving into position to attack my camp but thought they had complete surprise. I initiated on them with 8 himars missiles (oooooh yeah) and a barrage of 120 and 81 mm mortar fire, followed by all the MG's and MK19's. they never got a shot off.

The aftermath was kind of funny. The Taliban TL was offset and started trying to do a roll call over the ICOM. He went through eight names, then actually said "Noooooooooooooo!" On the air. Made our day.
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Old 12-10-2016, 03:29   #4
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Hit them hard and fast with your most casualty producing weapon. Once initiated, you will have to deal with your targets reaction to contact which includes dispersion, squirters, and oh yeah, return fire. It's called a sucker punch for a reason. It's called an ambush for a reason. Your not there to negotiate. It's ok to go big early, tax payers will buy you more toys.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:51   #5
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How does one initiate an ambush?

Brilliantly! - with superior firepower, lethality, and surprise!

I can also see where the Marine Corps is coming from, from the standpoint that the M4/M16 has a nearly 100% first round success rate (unless an empty chamber) and all other common "more lethal" weapons and devices make a little to big amount of noise when they go "click" or "clunk" and nothing happens.

I too liked using tripwire devices for paths and trails but, you had to have a means to let a lead element like a scout or point-man get through it if the main party was the target.

Setup a few vehicular ambushes with buried mines as well.

So I guess it can really depends on the target. Shoot an M4 or launch an AT-4 (LAW)
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:22   #6
atticus finch
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Originally Posted by JJ_BPK View Post
Old School..

If the target was of unknown size, We use trip flares and claymores in a stand off mode (1K),, give them 3-4 minutes to recover and call in pre-marked artillery, wait a hour and go count coup..

If it's a small team(3-5) and small target,, sit and wait until you see the whites of their eyes,, with predesignated signal, like a trip/smoke/wp flare. Having something that calls the target attention away from you, can give you 10-20 seconds of surprise time to unload hell..

My $00.00002

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Having something that calls the target attention away from you, can give you 10-20 seconds of surprise time to unload hell..
I hadn't thought of this, I just learned something, thanks.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:44   #7
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I hadn't thought of this, I just learned something, thanks.
IF you can,, putting a flare 20-30 ft the other side of the ambush, puts the target between you and the flare. They look at the flare,, no at you..

BUT there is a good chance they will run at you, thinking they are retreating. It all depends on their adherence to an immediate action drill..

If you can put it 100 ft away,, they will freeze in place,, much better,, but only rarely doable...
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Old 12-23-2016, 04:54   #8
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IF you can,, putting a flare 20-30 ft the other side of the ambush, puts the target between you and the flare. They look at the flare,, no at you..

BUT there is a good chance they will run at you, thinking they are retreating. It all depends on their adherence to an immediate action drill..

If you can put it 100 ft away,, they will freeze in place,, much better,, but only rarely doable...
No matter the method of application it is a wise use of basic human nature. First instinct is to turn and look to see if it's a threat. Now they burn a second or so deciding where the threat is & you have a head start on them.....
I hadn't thought of it and it is good to know as such a scenario is a two-way street. Use and be used...know what to do...
Again thank you for the teaching, it is important for myself and partly why I come to the website. You never know what you might learn here.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:34   #9
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Marines Threw Belt Fed To Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettendorf View Post
How does one initiate an ambush?

I was taught that one would one would use the heaviest casualty-producing weapon (ie Claymore) but it the absence of said ability, what would it be?

Apparently, the Marine Corps teaches that a closed-bolt weapon (M16-M4) does the job. I guess operated by a leader.

Thanks.
Don't forget the Marines went through great lengths to legitimize the M16 as a replacement for the SAW and M240, in the AUTOMATIC RIFLE role. They use an M16 that is now an M27. A MAGAZINE FED 5.56 rifle in the role we all learned to be of a BELT FED 7.62 MACHINE GUN.

I recall extensive publicity efforts in the gun media and even NAT GEO or Discovery to show how the M27 ADDS an important FULL AUTOMATIC FIRE CAPABILITY to the Marine Infantry Squad.

Unbelievable.

Now, none of us ever enjoyed carrying the PIG, or the M240 and variants, but it is a weapons system that is the one that determines the planning of an ambush. Both initiating and reacting to.

As I sit back as a Civilian now and read all the "advances" and "initiatives" in the Infantry, I see the decision makers do not have the surviving and lethality of the Combat Arms at heart. Maybe it's just to dilute the Combat Arms so EVERYONE can now be a WARRIOR.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:14   #10
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Don't forget the Marines went through great lengths to legitimize the M16 as a replacement for the SAW and M240, in the AUTOMATIC RIFLE role. They use an M16 that is now an M27. A MAGAZINE FED 5.56 rifle in the role we all learned to be of a BELT FED 7.62 MACHINE GUN.

I recall extensive publicity efforts in the gun media and even NAT GEO or Discovery to show how the M27 ADDS an important FULL AUTOMATIC FIRE CAPABILITY to the Marine Infantry Squad.

Unbelievable.

Now, none of us ever enjoyed carrying the PIG, or the M240 and variants, but it is a weapons system that is the one that determines the planning of an ambush. Both initiating and reacting to.

As I sit back as a Civilian now and read all the "advances" and "initiatives" in the Infantry, I see the decision makers do not have the surviving and lethality of the Combat Arms at heart. Maybe it's just to dilute the Combat Arms so EVERYONE can now be a WARRIOR.
The M27 is designed to replace the M249 SAW, not the 7.62mm belt fed MG like the M240. It is a reprisal of the BAR and is similar in concept to the RPK. It takes the same ammo and feed device as the rest of the squad (30 round mags). I kind of like the idea. The SAW was good for open terrain, but in urban or restricted terrain it actually made squads LESS flexible, as the SAW doesn't do a good job in close fights that require a lot of firing from unsupported positions. Lots of Marines and Soldiers ended up clearing houses with SAWs in Iraq, which is less than ideal. There are still plenty of M240s out there for area suppression and grazing fire into kill zones or FPFs.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:35   #11
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Originally Posted by Bettendorf View Post
How does one initiate an ambush?

I was taught that one would one would use the heaviest casualty-producing weapon (ie Claymore) but it the absence of said ability, what would it be?

Apparently, the Marine Corps teaches that a closed-bolt weapon (M16-M4) does the job. I guess operated by a leader.

Thanks.
Naval infantry, need we discuss this more?
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:22   #12
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ambush/open vs. closed bolt

Thought I'd help clarify why the Marine Corps taught us to initiate with a closed-bolt weapon. I saw someone state the fact that if you initiate with an open bolt weapon such as a SAW or 240, you run the risk of the bolt slamming home on an empty chamber, (bingo) leaving a partial team/squad to realize what just happened and only one or half your men initiate opening fire, because as you know, the SAW cycle of operations starts with "feeding" whereas the M27 starts with "firing." Also, now the enemy knows where you have emplaced your heavier "squad indigenous firepower"...so where do you think their focus is now? So yes, idealy, claymores, on-call IDF targets, whether mortars or arty, or even 40mm or some rockets, would be your best bet. And yes, usually a squad/team leader initiates.

FlagdayNCO sort of hit the nail on the head with the replacement of the SAW with the M27 IAR. Contrary to popular belief, the SAW is still very much incorporated with teams and squads in the infantry marine corps and aren't going anywhere. I was lucky enough to carry both, but the M27 gives you the ability to initiate an ambush with fully automatic capabilities and almost none of the risk of a misfire. I can count on one hand how many IA drills I had to run clearing a double-feed/misfire in its dirtiest condition. Not to mention now you have more suppressive fire capabilities in a team and it's the easiest weapon to clean(the short stroke gas piston eliminates most carbon build up in the gas block). If the funding was there, the M27 would replace the M16/M4 altogether, but we all know the USMC does more with less and is the go-to for hand-me-downs
Might hurt some feelings with this one, but the M27 nearly gives DMR capabilities to every team carrying one(without a can on it, obviously). Most versatile weapon in an infantry platoon if ya ask me.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:06   #13
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No one answer to this question...it depends. Specifically it depends upon the terrain, enemy force and friendlies.
Are you near/far is the key issue...open terrain or dense vegetation.
What are the 'odds'.
Is it a kill/scoot or a cross the kill zone deal.
In short, I'd need a scenario to answer.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:12   #14
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No one answer to this question...it depends. Specifically it depends upon the terrain, enemy force and friendlies.
Are you near/far is the key issue...open terrain or dense vegetation.
What are the 'odds'.
Is it a kill/scoot or a cross the kill zone deal.
In short, I'd need a scenario to answer.
Egg-actly........

Personally I like to set up ambushes with Bangalore torpedos decorated like XMAS trees along the travel path. And..... line the ditch on either side with det-cord. But that's just me.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:58   #15
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Egg-actly........

Personally I like to set up ambushes with Bangalore torpedos decorated like XMAS trees along the travel path. And..... line the ditch on either side with det-cord. But that's just me.
You forgot to put up "Safe Space" signs around the ditch...
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