Old 05-18-2006, 19:32   #31
JPH
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Great Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mugwump
TR --

I'd like to see us split up the load, carefully research solutions, and present options somehow -- for good/better/best, short/medium/long term, urban/suburban/rural?

I'd like to see these topics researched and presented as I did with the HTH water purification post -- a "show all your work" presentation that can be peer-reviewed by PS.com and then given a seal of approval as a prudent, non-over-the-top, inexpensive, and safe/effective option to employ. Nobody has the time to do this stuff alone. There are places on the net that try to gather this information -- some could be used as resources -- but lack of discipline and general asshattery lead to chaos and just more conflicting opinions that aren't backed up.

Nobody can do your planning for you, but some of this stuff could be doled out I'd think.
I agree fully, no one can do your planning for you, however to do this right takes a lot of time, energy, money, and thought.

Additionally, as stated above, most people don’t have a realistic set of priorities. It would be great to have a place with likeminded individuals to review and offer opinions and insights in to different situations.

I have been thinking about this and other related subjects for the past year or so. I will stop here and allow those with a broader knowledge base than mind continue before presenting my thoughts and concerns.

TR Thank-You for starting this, I hope as well that it does not die young,

JPH
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Old 05-18-2006, 19:34   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sten
HTH bird flu.
Actually, that would still be breathable, just contaminated. We can cover that under medical. Nice try though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
1. a flooding situation
2. a fire
3. chemical spill / explosion
4. nuclear issue
5. high wind / dust situation
6. Bridge / Tunnel collapse
7. Injury to thoracic / cervical / cranial anatomies - or any hypovolemic situation.

I probably missed some, but I think I covered most of them

Each has a slightly different Breathable Air issue - but the Airway is compromised in all of the above
Good analysis, x!

1. is probably a result of not evacuating quickly enough and would require bottled air. Few floods occur so rapidly that we cannot evacuate to higher ground. Dam breaks and tsunamis would be the exception. If so, bad karma, unless you live below a dam of questionable stability.

2. is what I was primarily looking at, and is the highest probability of all those listed. If you frequently travel, fly, or stay in hotels, you might want to consider an escape hood. They are designed to provide some head and neck thermal protection as well as filtering air of the worst parts for 15 minutes or so to let you breathe long enough to escape. I take one in my bag when I travel. The few minutes it provides should allow you to get clear of a fire.

3. would require a protective mask or bottled air (as would a terrorist attack by chemical weapons). If you live in an urban area or an area near a potential chemical problem (to include a railroad or major truck route) you need to be prepared with the appropriate gear. Note that once the alarm is given, you would be evacuating, not staying in place to wait it out.

4. should not effect air supplies. If radioactive particles are released, IIRC, they are large enough to be caught by a simple particulate filter mask, like an N95 mask. They are handy for a lot of contingencies, and I would pick some up sooner, rather than later. As a worst case, I would try covering the mouth and nose with a damp cloth. If you live that close to a potential nuclear problem you might want to pick up some of the potassium iodide tablets as well.

5. would also be breathable, like 4, but to be safe, I would recommend a filter mask like the N95. A wet cloth would also work.

6., if accompanied by tunnel flooding, is just very bad karma. I suppose that you could drive around with a SCUBA tank or HEEDS handy, but that is a pretty low probability event. Worrying about the bridge you are on collapsing is probably an indicator of bigger problems.

7. is medical, and is likely beyond the non-medical person's ability to deal with, unless classes and advanced equipment are available. My best suggestion would be to transport ASAP.

Look at where you live, work, or spend time and examine the probability of any of these occuring to you. 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 can kill you or those you are responsible for, so they are the highest severity. If any of those approach the possible category for you, you would probably be well advised to plan for them and prepare accordingly. Buying protective masks might be a good idea if you are concerned about surviving poison gases for a limited period of time. An escape hood would be a good idea if you travel frequently or live in a high rise dwelling. N95 masks would probably be a good idea for almost everyone as they have so many uses.

In almost all of the above situations, you are going to be advised to evacuate. Smart people look at their situation, all of the available information, and make informed decisions. Hey, if you live by yourself and want to ride the storm out with a case of beer, fine. Write your name on your extremities with a Magic Marker and have at it. If others are depending on you, do the smart thing and evacuate. Even if you have done it ten times, and nothing happened, remember the tapes of the Katrina survivors who stayed, and consider if you want your family left in that situation.

As far as this analysis goes, I would prefer to take one of the issues at the time and flog it to death till we have beaten all that we can out of it and move along to the next one. There are no real right or wrong answers. We can all learn together. Anyone gets out of line, I think we can deal with them.

Hope this helps.

TR
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Old 05-18-2006, 19:42   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sten
HTH bird flu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
1. a flooding situation
2. a fire
3. chemical spill / explosion
4. nuclear issue
5. high wind / dust situation
6. Bridge / Tunnel collapse
7. Injury to thoracic / cervical / cranial anatomies - or any hypovolemic situation.

I probably missed some, but I think I covered most of them

Each has a slightly different Breathable Air issue - but the Airway is compromised in all of the above

So, we have 3(?) categories: 1) trapped with absence of/diminishing O2; 2) nasty, filterable stuff that'll kill you; 3) injuries that prevent inspiration.

Seems like the only one to reasonably plan for is #2. a) Short term: particulates - smoke (high rise fire) or radiologics or bioagents; b) short term: nasty gases; c) mid to long term intermittent exposure to infectious agents or spores, dust (1930s dust bowl), radiologics.
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Old 05-19-2006, 06:56   #34
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TR-
you did not ask about probabilities for the situations, just the situations, so I took a walk down memory lane, and pulled conceivable situations. The flooding was for the COL, even though the waters are receding, because he sent the damn rain my way.

I'm not sure if I buy your particulate / filter argument - breathability is compromised, and without quick action there are long term issues that will affect survivability. Esp. in the NBC scenario, without protection form the Cesium 123 / or various incapacitating agents you are in deep deep kimshi - anything harder than an incap agt - well you're basically screwed anyway (yup NBC school put the fear of chem war into me).

In the most likely situations - Fire/smoke, non incidiary particulates - common sense should prevail, as long as you have your drive on rag and remember how to low crawl with a purpose.

Mug - dust can be categorized into the bio category also, most of the deaths from dust storms are delayed - due to soil borne contaminants (mycoplasmic spores / dormant viruses ie. pneumonae mycoplasmiae, p.viriliae, a whole series of v. shigellae - thank you to the d.board at medlab, my one attendance required the study of the "pneu" section of the Merck, and as extra credit I was required to have a good understandin of the section "resp")

Last edited by x SF med; 05-19-2006 at 07:04.
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:11   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugwump
So, we have 3(?) categories: 1) trapped with absence of/diminishing O2; 2) nasty, filterable stuff that'll kill you; 3) injuries that prevent inspiration.

Seems like the only one to reasonably plan for is #2. a) Short term: particulates - smoke (high rise fire) or radiologics or bioagents; b) short term: nasty gases; c) mid to long term intermittent exposure to infectious agents or spores, dust (1930s dust bowl), radiologics.

May also include under c) debris from a 9/11 WTC style collapse. A lot of those folks are having big problems because of breathing all that stuff in that day.
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:23   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
TR-
you did not ask about probabilities for the situations, just the situations, so I took a walk down memory lane, and pulled conceivable situations. The flooding was for the COL, even though the waters are receding, because he sent the damn rain my way.

I'm not sure if I buy your particulate / filter argument - breathability is compromised, and without quick action there are long term issues that will affect survivability. Esp. in the NBC scenario, without protection form the Cesium 123 / or various incapacitating agents you are in deep deep kimshi - anything harder than an incap agt - well you're basically screwed anyway (yup NBC school put the fear of chem war into me).

In the most likely situations - Fire/smoke, non incidiary particulates - common sense should prevail, as long as you have your drive on rag and remember how to low crawl with a purpose.

Mug - dust can be categorized into the bio category also, most of the deaths from dust storms are delayed - due to soil borne contaminants (mycoplasmic spores / dormant viruses ie. pneumonae mycoplasmiae, p.viriliae, a whole series of v. shigellae - thank you to the d.board at medlab, my one attendance required the study of the "pneu" section of the Merck, and as extra credit I was required to have a good understandin of the section "resp")
Don't take it the wrong way, I am not complaining about your comments, you saved me some work too.

I am missing your radiological point though. All of the radioactive particles I am aware of will be stopped by an N95 mask. Are you saying that you need an NBC type mask for radiological contaminants?

As far as chem agents go, I would rather have my pro mask and a poncho than to be without any protection at all. OTOH, I live in a suburban area far from any likely terrorist targets. If the local water plant has a chlorine leak or a rail car of Chlorine overturns, IIRC, the pro mask will do just fine for a quick escape, as long as you remember to change the filters before using it again.

The N95s will work for dust as well, though as you note a wet drive on rag is better than a whole lot of nothing. I keep a dry one in my pocket all of the time.

Air .177, if you are under the debris, your mobility may be restricted to the point that you cannot reach your own pockets. The biggest threat there is crush injuries. The firefighters who died when the towers fell were wearing respirators (Scott Air Packs). OTOH, if I were going down to a WTC type emergency to work after the incident, and it had been cleared of noxious gasses, I would not work there without an particulate mask of some kind.

On 9/11, all of those above the crash line in one of the towers were doomed as there were no surviving stairwells. In the other, IIRC, one stairwell remained servicable. IMHO, if the workers had started evacuating immediately and had an escape hood and a good flashlight, many of them would have survived.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:43   #37
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TR-
No offense taken. Too much info (ie NBC school & 18D - makes for a dangerous combo in discussing airway compromise) the mind starts reeling away, uncontrollably.

I agree that the most likely situation is Fire/Smoke.
My argument as to Cesium 123 is that .0003 mCg inhaled (about 1 tiny breath) increases the chance of lung / metastacized cancers by over 80% - and the dirty bomb scenario feels much more likely anymore given the plethora of 'lost' N munitions / spent plutonium rodding / expended N fuel and waste available to the bad guys, coupled with the 'free society', no visible security mentality prevalent in the US.

I'm done, sorry for the hijack, shall we proceed?
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Old 05-19-2006, 08:43   #38
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TR: Sorry I was not specific, You are correct, if you are trapped under a metric ton of concrete, a mask is the least of your worries.

I was referring to the folks in surrounding buildings and outlying areas that were enveloped in the dust/debris cloud when the towers went down. I have heard that lots of those folks as well as some of the remaining rescue personnel are having respiratory problems from all of the particulate matter they took in that morning and in the rescue/recovery that followed.

Also, the airpacks most firefighters were wear are only good for 30-60 minutes breathable air in most cases.
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:05   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
TR-
No offense taken. Too much info (ie NBC school & 18D - makes for a dangerous combo in discussing airway compromise) the mind starts reeling away, uncontrollably.

I agree that the most likely situation is Fire/Smoke.
My argument as to Cesium 123 is that .0003 mCg inhaled (about 1 tiny breath) increases the chance of lung / metastacized cancers by over 80% - and the dirty bomb scenario feels much more likely anymore given the plethora of 'lost' N munitions / spent plutonium rodding / expended N fuel and waste available to the bad guys, coupled with the 'free society', no visible security mentality prevalent in the US.

I'm done, sorry for the hijack, shall we proceed?
We are proceeding just fine, IMHO. We can have a spirited academic argument about preparations all we want here, that is the purpose of the thread. I hope that others do not mind.

My point is that the particles must make it through the mask and into the lungs to be a breathing problem, and I do not think that the particles exceed the N95 mask filtration size of 1-10 microns, IIRC.

Thanks, Air, that clears that up. The pro mask will do as good or better job of filtration of particles, but at a substantial comfort and expense premium.

HTH.

TR
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Old 05-19-2006, 11:48   #40
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Here are some thoughts to add to the breathable air discussion. Lowes has boxes of 20 ea. NIOSH N95 rated masks by AO Safety for 19.95. They also have 2 packs of the same mask at 4.95 ea. Some real "economy of scale" in the purchase possibilities. Same goes for the requisite latex/nitrile gloves. I bring this up for several reasons.
1. Non-traditional sources have a lot of useful items provided you are willing to think outside the box and adapt what's available to what's required.
2. Buying it at Lowes saved time, shipping & handling, and the usual markup associated with medical/survival supplies.
3. The only thing important is the rating (by a reputable agency - in this case NIOSH). Brand names and fancy packaging just mean higher prices and reduced availability when people programmed by marketing experts make a run on the traditional sources.
4. If you can't find the ideal solution - don't be afraid to do the best you can. As TR and others have already noted a wet cravat is far better than nothing. You have to survive the initial incident to be alive to complain about silicosis 5-10 years later.
5. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. If your assessment of the risk says you have to have an NBC mask and none are available, are you going to procrastinate waiting on the perfect solution, or are you going to act decisively to implement an interim solution? What's wrong with a full face (best) or a half face + dive mask (got to protect eyes/tear ducts) VOC (or appropriate to the expected threat - don't forget Bhopal) rated filter mask as an interim measure until the ideal solution is available? Masks with replaceable cartridge filters certified for a wide range of hazards from simple dust to some very volitile chemicals are available from industrial supply houses (or Lowes/Home Depot) for reasonable cost. As long as there is enough Oxygen to sustain life, there is usually an available filter that will last long enough to permit evacuation. The commercial filters may not last as long as military rated ones but they are readilly available and easy to change out. Again - If it lasts long enough to evacuate, it's served it's purpose.

Just some additional thoughts. BTW - Great thread, it's even got HH6's attention. Peregrino
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:59   #41
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Peregrino-
you forgot that they also carry the Tyvek coveralls "painting coveralls / asbestos removal coveralls" for a very reasonable price - a great investment, along with a piezo electric (squeeze) flashlight -- Actually I use the tyvek, N95 / nitrile combo to sand and paint the boat.
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Old 05-19-2006, 13:19   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sf_med
Peregrino-
you forgot that they also carry the Tyvek coveralls "painting coveralls / asbestos removal coveralls" for a very reasonable price - a great investment, along with a piezo electric (squeeze) flashlight -- Actually I use the tyvek, N95 / nitrile combo to sand and paint the boat.

x_sf_med Thanks, talk about completely missing a cheap alternative. Good catch. I'm actually looking at a product called "Frog Togs" (available at Bass Pro Shops - where HH6 wants to go shopping Sunday to enhance our own preparedness posture!). It's waterproof, inexpensive, disposable, available in a range of colors that includes "Mossy Oak" camoflauge, has an integral hood, and can be sealed with the ubiquitous duct tape to make an acceptable NBC suit. (NTM - I believe the base fabric is Tyvek!) It resembles the last generation (that I know of) SOF emergency NBC exposure suit, the "wad it up and throw it away as soon as you've exacuated the threat area" one. Good call - Peregrino
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Old 05-19-2006, 13:30   #43
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I've said it in other posts - look for Spinnaker repair tape - strong, light, waterproof, not shiny, and pretty cheap too $6/roll - comes in black too.

try layline.com -- it's a sailing supplier
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Old 05-19-2006, 14:57   #44
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Coveralls

Just thought of something and I don't know if it's correct, but if you don't have throwaway coveralls, what about an old rainsuit or similiar? It can be hosed off if exposed, and I don't think particles will stick to something that's slick like a vinyl rainjacket/pants.
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Old 05-19-2006, 15:11   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon65
Just thought of something and I don't know if it's correct, but if you don't have throwaway coveralls, what about an old rainsuit or similiar? It can be hosed off if exposed, and I don't think particles will stick to something that's slick like a vinyl rainjacket/pants.
Radio, Bio, or Chem?

TR
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