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Old 04-20-2017, 21:39   #46
TWITCHY
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TR, you referred to first line and second line gear in your post and I also saw this mentioned in a forum discussion about "battle belts". I was not in the military so I do not know what first and second line gear refer to, exactly. I searched on these forums for reference, but I didn't find anything about it. Could you direct me to a resource that describes first and second line gear?

Also, a friend of mine has become infatuated with battle belts. He was not in the military, either. Are battle belts something that are actually used by soldiers or is it a new tacticool piece of gear. They look like they would be useful in the situation you have presented. I would assume that a battle belt or any other tactical looking gear would not be suited to the urban environment (if one intends to blend in); however, I could see a battle belt being useful in the country, hills, or mountains during the 100 mile trek.

I really appreciate the expert opinions in this thread and I am making a shopping list based on everyone's input. Thanks.
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Urban Area E&E
Old 04-21-2017, 09:16   #47
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Urban Area E&E

Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
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Old 04-21-2017, 14:35   #48
bblhead672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ11B View Post
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
Funny you should mention that...I've been thinking along the same thoughts. Mark the corners with "street sign" names for areas that you know well (but not the neighborhood you're actually in!) but the meaning would be lost on anyone else.
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Old 04-21-2017, 22:33   #49
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TJ 11B
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Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo

Last edited by Penn; 04-21-2017 at 22:35.
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:17   #50
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DPMS Oracle 5.56 with 6 30 rd mags plus one 20 rd in the rifle
ACOG TA31 with BAC
Streamlight TLR with white light and IR laser.

AN/PVS 14 (still need one or two more for others in the group)

Perhaps some 550 cord to rig a sling when I need one. Where I live a sling gets caught a lot moving thru thick stuff.

Ruger 22/45 Packlite barrel with suppressor 1 spare magazine plus one in the pistol and 100 rounds of CCI MiniMag.
I have NOT found a holster I like for it. Any thoughts?


This scenario is unlikely for me since I have my wife here and lots of step children, son-in-law and multiple grandkids nearby. Still If I have to move with them it would be about 50 miles thru the mountains to a safe location (all ready prepped). My basic load stays the same. The adults all get an AR and the grandkids all get a .22 rifle.
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Last edited by doctom54; 04-22-2017 at 09:26.
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Old 04-22-2017, 20:26   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn View Post
TJ 11B

Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo
I believe that everyone has to find their happy medium between overloaded with too much junk, and comfortably loaded with what you need. The only way to do that is to walk with your load on your back, and practice living out of it.

I do not believe that you can make this journey with little to no food or by shivering all night to try and keep from freezing. Buzzing and biting insects can make you crazy. A little bad water and you are stuck for several days trying to recover while puking and crapping your guts out. A couple of bouts of this and you would be seriously ineffective, if not dead.

A JetBoil or the like can make hot water for rehydrating meals or warming beverages very quickly, without adding a lot of weight. A one ounce fishing kit might keep you moving, if you know when and where to use it. Most things I would choose to carry can be used for more than one purpose.

In the right season, your shelter and clothing might be quite light. In winter up North, not so much.

The Native American generally traveled light, but his life expectancy was very short as well.

Running will likely get you detected and rolled up. You can make 10-20 miles per day without running, if you are conditioned, plan well, and have the right terrain and route selected.

First line gear has been discussed extensively here before. First is on your person or in your pockets. Second is the next layer after that and is generally your load carrying gear. Third line is your rucksack and its contents.

Agreed with the comments about urban camouflage, but would suggest you determine in advance which underground tunnels are passable on foot, or are filled with sewage or toxic gas on a regular basis.

CI MiniMags are supersonic from a rifle, and some pistols. You may want to find out before you have to use them and they are not quiet.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR
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Old 04-25-2017, 14:09   #52
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As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............
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Old 04-25-2017, 14:44   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............
You carry the crossbow, I'll stick with my 22/45 and Silencerco Sparrow. I'll bet you a steak dinner at the RP that I won't be nearly as annoyed about the "getting there" as you will be.
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Old 04-25-2017, 15:19   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino View Post
You carry the crossbow, I'll stick with my 22/45 and Silencerco Sparrow. I'll bet you a steak dinner at the RP that I won't be nearly as annoyed about the "getting there" as you will be.
My Ruger Mk II with suppressor is first choice for me as well, just kicking around options, ideas etc. How effective are they in the real world etc.
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Old 04-25-2017, 15:29   #55
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Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............
Never doubt a SEAL,, it's the details that get fuzzy..

Widely use by the more primitive mountain tribes. Short range, good for small monkeys, birds.

Do you remember Lynda K Lance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG3LEK2WD8g

The Yards made her one while she was on a USO tour.

"Getting My Montagnard Crossbow (still have it)"

For portability? I think I would look at a good sling-shot and 1/4 or 3/8 steel balls.
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File Type: jpg large-montagnard-crossbow-arrows_1_d152b4fa15c6237b945b177dd447095f.jpg (45.0 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg army.jpg (45.9 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg crossbow.jpg (50.1 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg WOW-Carved-Montagnard-Wood-Crossbow-13-Arrows-Quills-_57.jpg (60.0 KB, 35 views)
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Old 04-25-2017, 15:46   #56
Brush Okie
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Never doubt a SEAL,, it's the details that get fuzzy..

s.


LOL

I know what you mean. This guy is legit however. I knew the guy somewhat for a couple years before he even mentioned it . I had my doubts at first as well. It sounded like the bow was more of a toy to try out than a weapon they really carried.

It is shitty weather here in WA and my mind stars wondering about odd ball shit when I get bored.
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Old 04-25-2017, 18:16   #57
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As I checked the wx this AM making decisions for the day (affirm on leaving the dogs out in the yard, neg on riding the MC to work), I wondered how many in this scenario would take a moment to review and somehow record the forecast for the expected duration of movement. Clearly not the highest priority, but would certainly have bearing on visibility, expected traffic/patrol patterns, potential water avail, LP/concealment locations, etc.

Although I'm a near-Luddite, most would have near-instant access to a reasonably accurate extended forecast at least before departing, and there are quick ways to shorthand data in a notebook if you don't plan or expect to be using e-tools on the way.
When I'm in the boonies for more than an overnight to fish or hunt, I'll use a Rite-in-the-Rain pad to record min/max T, rainfall timing, cloud cover, and wind/direction for the duration. Let's me plan when to expect birds to hold or seek southerly aspects, when I'd be better to sleep in, when it'd be better to fish. In the days when I was into skiing and avi study, it was also nice to know expected pressure changes as well, both for the snow science part and to know when not to trust the Suunto altimeter.

Thoughts?
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Old 04-25-2017, 23:47   #58
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Some different thoughts on movement. Depending on whether it is a mass evacuation or an independent movement?

In some cases I might presume groups or crowds of people moving away from cities with a wide spectrum of skills and abilities. How far out would they be going, some probably only going minimal distances as opposed to the 100 miles stated.

How would terrain channelize movement... In Colo. with the foot hills it would be different than the plateau at 3,400' I was at in NC.

One thought might be the ability to change appearance during movement which could be as simple as a different colored shirt, hat or pack cover. In other situations the ability to camouflage and or reduce signatures might be key during halts.

Navigation could be dead reckoning w/or wo a map or it might require local knowledge of terrain, trails and historical info. ( older overgrown trails and disused routes)? In the triple canopy forest maps and altimeters come in handy.

Small game gets rousted while traveling quietly alone or in small groups, I was thinking of the game in this area ie Rabbit and squirrel, however there have been recent out breaks of tularemia ( rabbit fever) and known episodes of rabies in this State...which makes one ponder the meds and items needed for travel. Often have been curious what supplements might come in handy in situations where you are obtaining some local food but not meeting all dietary needs ie proteins, carbs vitamins, stimulants *...
* While I enjoy pine and spruce needle tea a nice black tea or tasty coffee makes a difference at times.

In Colo. they say if you don't like the weather wait five minutes, they say there are seasons here but we have seen 80f temps a week ago and snow for tomorrow. Travel in the high country can be dicey and unpredictable often. Good skill craft can go a long way in dealing with the intangibles and as said before multi purpose equipment can make a big difference.*
* 18f temps 12" of snow a week after 70f temps a week earlier.

Thinking about the weapons load out I realized I take the same when heading to the Mt location here, while I understand things can happen on the way I regard the last movement into a space I have not controlled recently as the most likely danger zone. Being prepared might just make the difference in this scenario both for you and your crew especially in remote areas.
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File Type: jpg Unexpected snow totals and low temps..jpg (58.7 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by Golf1echo; 05-09-2017 at 09:20.
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Old 04-26-2017, 18:18   #59
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I have found it interesting to see what type of terrain/obstacles others have to negotiate with. It definitely makes me more pleased with my location. A straight azimuth in one direction would put me in a Forest Service mountain range in 40 miles and in another direction a Forest Service mountain range in 45 miles. Both of which would not cross thru urban areas/towns. The avoidance would be for the most part isolated farm and/or ranch houses some of which I am on a good friends basis

TR, thanks for putting this thread together and the others in the past. It really gets a guy to thinking. I have had several rucks/packs thrown together with various stuff but none specific to a situation. I will be doing some testing this summer as in a couple of months some friends and I are going to trek across the Snowy Mountains. It's not a great distance but will sure give me a feel for loads at altitude, something I haven't had a lot of experience with.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:08   #60
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Good thread and worth following. I keep challenging my thinking on what I keep packed.

And yeah, this is my first and "great" contribution, but you'll thank me a couple miles after you drop a deuce: wet wipes, MRE TP....something. No need to be miserable. 100 miles is a long ways. I didn't see this mentioned under anyone's comfort items, but I'm getting older/dumber.

Any thoughts to small handheld radio or in this scenario is there a concern about monitoring? Comms plans sometimes overlooked.
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