Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > TMC 14 > The Aid Bag

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-11-2006, 08:32   #1
52bravo
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Odense Denmark
Posts: 77
Oral fentanyl AKA lollipop

like to know some thing about lollipop, from you guys.

first how do thay like heat, do thay melt in the s... heat of Iraq?

2nd the dosis the TCCC say 400 mcg, some of you tells my that you use 800 mcg, the paper by dr's Russ S. Kotwal Kevin C. O’Connor, and John B. Holcomb (and et al)A Novel Pain Management Strategy for Combat Casualty Care uses 1600 mcg.
so what to use to give the same effect of 10-20 mg morphine IV/IM in real life? i have look it up in the book it say 800 mcg.

3th not a easy one, how long do it have a effect?, the book say ½ time is 7h, but what in reallife, the paper look at the effect after 5h, and there where still good effect there


A Novel Pain Management Strategy for Combat
Casualty Care
Russ S. Kotwal, MD, MPH
Kevin C. O’Connor, DO
Troy R. Johnson, MD
Dan S. Mosely, MD
David E. Meyer, MS, PT
John B. Holcomb, MD


Study objective: Pain control in trauma patients should be an integral part of the
continuum of care, beginning at the scene with out-of-hospital trauma management,
sustained through the evacuation process, and optimized during hospitalization. This
study evaluates the effectiveness of a novel application of a pain control medication,
currently indicated for the management of chronic and breakthrough cancer pain, in the
reduction of acute pain for wounded Special Operations soldiers in an austere combat
environment.
Methods: Doses (1,600 mg) of oral transmucosal fentanyl citrate were administered by
medical personnel during missions executed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom from
March 3, 2003, to May 3, 2003. Hemodynamically stable casualties presenting with
isolated, uncomplicated orthopedic injuries or extremity wounds who would not have
otherwise required an intravenous catheter were eligible for treatment and evaluation.
Pretreatment, 15-minute posttreatment, and 5-hour posttreatment pain intensities were
quantified by the verbal 0-to-10 numeric rating scale.
Results: A total of 22 patients, aged 21 to 37 years, met the study criterion. The mean
difference in verbal pain scores (5.77; 95% confidence interval [CI] 5.18 to 6.37) was
found to be statistically significant between the mean pain rating at 0 minutes and the
rating at 15 minutes. However, the mean difference (0.39; 95% CI 0.18 to 0.96) was not
statistically significant between 15 minutes and 5 hours, indicating the sustained action
of the intervention without the need for redosing. One patient experienced an episode of
hypoventilation that resolved readily with administration of naloxone. Other
documented adverse effects were minor and included pruritus (22.7%), nausea (13.6%),
emesis (9.1%), and lightheadedness (9.1%).
Conclusion: Oral transmucosal fentanyl citrate can provide an alternative means of
delivering effective, rapid-onset, and noninvasive pain management in an out-ofhospital,
combat, or austere environment.
[Ann Emerg Med. 2004;44:121-127.]
__________________
If we are going to ask one of our combat medics to undertake a medical treatment in the middle of a firefight, then we need to be as sure as possible that the benefit resulting from this treatment is going to be worth the risk.
52bravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 10:09   #2
Air.177
Quiet Professional
 
Air.177's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
Perhaps some of the answers you seek may be found Here
Air.177 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 10:16   #3
52bravo
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Odense Denmark
Posts: 77
no look for first hand experience whit it use. i now all about IV use off fentanyl but i have never use oral fenanyl befor.
__________________
If we are going to ask one of our combat medics to undertake a medical treatment in the middle of a firefight, then we need to be as sure as possible that the benefit resulting from this treatment is going to be worth the risk.
52bravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 19:48   #4
haztacmedic
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 79
The Russians can tell you about how not to deploy Fentanyl Gas.....
haztacmedic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2007, 08:34   #5
TF Kilo
Guerrilla
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Nevada
Posts: 213
Dr. Kotwal was my Battalion Surgeon.

Pretty much, if I recall correctly, he came up with the idea of using these. They had been out for cancer patient pain management, but hadn't been widely used in any prehospital setting, let alone combat medicine.

400mg has a kick.

The method of deployment was relatively simple. Once the patient is stabilized, then they can have a lollypop. Quite literally.

obvious counterindications: maxofacial trauma, basically if they physically can't suck on a candy lollypop then you don't need to give them one of these. Must be concious and relatively lucid.

15 minutes sucking on it, 15 off... decrease by 1 minute down to 5 minutes.. Basically any wound that patient has, they will know about but sure as hell won't care about it.

With the 400mg dosage, we found that it was way too much for a straight shot, hence the titration effect with the staggered administration.
TF Kilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 05:34   #6
52bravo
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Odense Denmark
Posts: 77
Tx TK Kilo
__________________
If we are going to ask one of our combat medics to undertake a medical treatment in the middle of a firefight, then we need to be as sure as possible that the benefit resulting from this treatment is going to be worth the risk.
52bravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2007, 11:03   #7
ccrn
Guerrilla
 
ccrn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Event Horizon...
Posts: 381
My unit didnt allow medics to carry morphine in the field for some reason. Ive been told by medics in other units they experienced the same thing.

After three of our soldiers lived 45 minutes after suffering mulitple traumatic amuptations I asked the battalion PA if he would add fentanyl lollipops to the their formulary. They did.

I dont know from personal experience as I am not a medic but I do know ours carried the fentanyl for the duration of the tour and did use it often so Im thinking they must have withstood the heat reasonably well.

Id like to add a part of an AAR from a PA with a Ranger unit post engangement:

Improve
*Issue:Pain control of severely injured patients.
Discussion:The Fentanyl lollipop (400mcg) has been effective for severe sprains and blunt force truama fractures but has not provided adequate relief for severe injuries such as gunshot wounds/compartment syndromes. The time to action is delayed and most patients required IV morphine to control their pain.
Recommendation:Maintain Fentanyl as an option for mild/moderate pain but have a low threshold for utilization of Morphine. Consider 800mcg Fentanyl lozenges.

The AAR also recommended training for compartement syndromes and focusing first aid more on dressings and bleeding control and less on IV fluids-
HTH
ccrn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 07:46   #8
82ndtrooper
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,189
Out of my depth but .............

1600mg doses ? I've had plenty of Demerol, Stadal, and Morphine for various injuries. Dislocated shoulders that required concious sedation for relocation of the anterior dislocation, and for abortive treatment of acute migraine headaches that are what I like to call "out of abortive range" with common houshold pain relievers and triptans.

I understand that composition of the opiod and other elements to the medication are measured differently, but is 1600mg equivalent to say 100mg of Demerol, or 10mg of Morphine, 4mg of Stadol ?

I've had these administered both intramuscular and intravenious. Obviously the intravenienus dosage are pushed in smaller dosage than an intramuscular, but the effect is almost instantantious when the nurse pulls the syringe from the catheter. (Like you just got hit with a twelve pack of beer all in one dance)

What is the anesthetic effect of this drug ? It seems like a whopper of a dosage if it's purely an synthetic opiod with phenagan for nausea.
82ndtrooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 08:01   #9
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
I think you many be confusing units of measure

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper
1600mg doses...
It is 1600 mcg (micrograms) not 1600mg (milligrams)

1000mcg = 1mg

HTH,

Crip
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 10:03   #10
52bravo
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Odense Denmark
Posts: 77
82ndtrooper:

tx, good points but i am look for ones who use the lollipops. i use IV morfin ect on PTs almost every day. have not use lollipop on other than ped's. and old cancer pt's.
__________________
If we are going to ask one of our combat medics to undertake a medical treatment in the middle of a firefight, then we need to be as sure as possible that the benefit resulting from this treatment is going to be worth the risk.
52bravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 13:54   #11
ccrn
Guerrilla
 
ccrn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Event Horizon...
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper
What is the anesthetic effect of this drug ?
Combined with a benzo like midazolam (versed) its works well for light to moderate conscience sedation. We use it all the time for procedures at the bedside or in interventional radiology.

I know that EMS will use similar meds for reductions, extrications etc but Crip would have to expend on that as its not my area of expertise (yet).

52bravo, sorry I cant give you more info on the fentanyl lozenges. I searched and found some info online so you should be able to do the same (Im sure you have) the most meaningful to me being the AAR I posted above. Perhaps your guys could start a study of their own?
ccrn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 22:37   #12
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrn
...I know that EMS will use similar meds for reductions, extrications etc but Crip would have to expend on that as its not my area of expertise (yet).
We werent using Fentanyl Lollipops or lozenges in EMS when I came here to the SFQC; I do not believe that has changed. We did use Morphine (with Promethazine) the majority of the time for mod-severe pain mgmt with the occassional use of Nitrous Oxide (self-administered). MS was given during extrication if and only if it was a simple extrication and the injuries were simple in nature, ie: extremity fx's. If the patient c/o back/neck, abd, or pelvic pain or had LOC, werent A&Ox3, or had other Neuro deficits Morphone was contraindicated until they were out of the vehicle/wreckage and a thorough secondary eval had been performed.

Reductions were never performed in EMS either.

HTH,

Crip
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc

Last edited by Surgicalcric; 02-22-2007 at 22:45.
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2007, 14:36   #13
ccrn
Guerrilla
 
ccrn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Event Horizon...
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgicalcric
Reductions were never performed in EMS either.

HTH,

Crip

Ok then I might have something confused then.

I seem to recall a discussion with some flight nurses regarding conscience sedation for reductions in the flield but then again, I've fallen on my head more than once-
ccrn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2007, 16:30   #14
Surgicalcric
Quiet Professional
 
Surgicalcric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrn
...I seem to recall a discussion with some flight nurses regarding conscience sedation for reductions in the field but then again, I've fallen on my head more than once-
Reductions of dislocations/fractures ARE NOT taught in the NREMT-P curriculum. What is taught is traction/realignment to maintain/reestablish distal perfusion and as such is a limb-sparing procedure. Setting and final reduction is saved for the ER/Ortho MD. I dont know of any EMS service (not that they arent out there) whose SOP's allow for CS by definition but more just mild sedation. Now there are those I have witnessed who will give liberal amounts of XXXX but if they were ever caught "it would be that ass."

Also SOP's for flight medics/RN's are usually a bit more liberal than they are for the run-of-the-mill EMS service. I know they were when I was flying.

Hope this clears up my inability to state my point earlier.

Crip
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman

"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Surgicalcric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 00:09   #15
ccrn
Guerrilla
 
ccrn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Event Horizon...
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgicalcric
Hope this clears up my inability to state my point earlier.

Crip
NP, the lack of clarity was my fault.

I think probably I use the term reduction a bit too liberally. I didnt mean to insinuate that EMT-Ps will perform CS but rather RNs (not that they couldnt).

Thanks for squaring me away-
ccrn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:03.



Copyright 2004-2019 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies