Old 12-04-2012, 10:53   #1
mff87
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Mobile Ad-Hoc Networks

Looking for those who have started playing with the new generational Mesh Networks (Wave Relay, Trellisware, Harris ANW2 (117G, PRC-152A) and so on.) What are the pros and cons tht they have seen and what would make them better.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:42   #2
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Using the 117G to stream video works very well. Have used it several times, both LOS and BLOS. The video server from Harris doens't work very well. In fact, even with help from Harris field reps and their own engineers, we could not get the Harris server to work. We used a rugged mini server from another company that worked very well and did not require a network engineer to program like the sever from Harris. The 117G sucks batteries and has a long boot up time. We used a battery adapter that remoted the BA-5590, had an internal zero-wait switch and allowed us to connect a new battery before disconnecting the old battery.

The Persistant Systems radios also worked very well, especially in buildings. Much better (reliability, throughput) than Harris ANW2. They are power hogs, the adapter cable to use BA-5590s was very helpfull.

The SRW waveform is very similar in capability and function as the proprietary ANW2 stuff from Harris. I have used it a couple of times and passed allot of data with it. I think SRW is going to be added to more radios. Would be great if all the radios in the rucksack could share a common large pipe architecture without being locked into Harris only ANW2 like we were with HPW prior to PDA-184.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:22   #3
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MANET Network interface device

Looking at a couple of devices in R&d right now. the first is like a ruggedized PS Vita but about a 1/4in thicker for mil-std rating and same controls. It is made to work as a SA tool, Chat, Video download up to 4 at one time and cross pollinate with existing team windows computers (think Win 7). They made for persistent devices but mention that they are trying to get to recognize other radio systems as long as they have 512KB bandwidth or better. Second device is an Android phone with same application on it for the less tactical applications.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:36   #4
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MANET

They are looking to add a 3G(HSPA+, EV-DO)/4LTE modem in the ruggedized device and looking at Delorme InReach for a total out of network emergency concept. Device seems to be able to go in and out of network never miss a message and update continually without crashing system with overhead.
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Old 07-23-2014, 09:54   #5
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For those that have used the 117G to stream video using the ANW2 waveform, what kind of point-to-point range are you seeing?
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Old 07-23-2014, 23:13   #6
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Originally Posted by mff87 View Post
Looking for those who have started playing with the new generational Mesh Networks (Wave Relay, Trellisware, Harris ANW2 (117G, PRC-152A) and so on.) What are the pros and cons tht they have seen and what would make them better.

I have used all of the systems you mentioned and a few others , to include the riflemans radio, in a side by side evaluation/vendor demo in one of the most restricitve environemts one could expect to use them as part of a structured evaluation and capability test for voice,data, live/real time video feed and situational awareness.

It would take me a few hours to go into the pros and cons of each one but to give you the BLUF, Wave relay (persistant systems) radio is clearly heads and shoulders above the other mfgrs products. It is able to do everything very well, it covered a vast amount of area with the least amount of radios and on the lowest power setting out of all systems tested and is easy to use and is ready to go as is rigth now and survive in a military environment.

A close second would be the radio from Trellisware. It is a very good system but the way its cables connect and the way they are built are not water/moisture proof as is and lack the robustness needed for use by military. This is probably its biggest weak link.

The riflemans, 152, 117 ,etc, all had to be jacked up to max power, (Some as high as 5 watts) to work for more than a few hundred meters, became very hot and required more radios to be carfully positioned in order to maintain voice,data,video capability and were basically all unfriendly to a fluid and changing environment. Meaning if one guy moved 2-3 feet in one direction and wasn't standing perfectly still, they would fall out of the net and comms with the farthest point would be lost.

Before someone gets their panties in a wad and writes a book about how their experience with X radio was different than what I typed here, keep in mind the environment we were testing it in was the most restrictive and unfriendly one that can be encountered and not one most people would probably had the chance to use these types of radios in.


The companies that make the situational/location centric,data type software interfaces that showed up predominately were all using Wave relay as the radio in their system to demonstrate what their software could do. This extended not only in the man worn radio systems but in some of the robotic platforms as well.
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Old 07-24-2014, 14:18   #7
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It would take me a few hours to go into the pros and cons of each one but to give you the BLUF, Wave relay (persistant systems) radio is clearly heads and shoulders above the other mfgrs products.
How does this Wave relay work? I've only messed with ANW2C on the 117G and 152A in a classroom environment and naturally it was made to sound like it was the best thing ever.
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Old 07-24-2014, 15:38   #8
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Looking at a couple of devices in R&d right now. the first is like a ruggedized PS Vita but about a 1/4in thicker for mil-std rating and same controls. It is made to work as a SA tool, Chat, Video download up to 4 at one time and cross pollinate with existing team windows computers (think Win 7). They made for persistent devices but mention that they are trying to get to recognize other radio systems as long as they have 512KB bandwidth or better. Second device is an Android phone with same application on it for the less tactical applications.
This can touch into TTPs, just saying. But he'll the Internet is a MESH network. It all depends on what you're looking to do. As with anything its all about what system you have and how much data you can push.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:31   #9
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How does this Wave relay work? I've only messed with ANW2C on the 117G and 152A in a classroom environment and naturally it was made to sound like it was the best thing ever.

In the class room it all works great. We have a few 117Gs on loan from Harris that we are using to test a new item we are developing.

The reason I asked about the range the 117G can stream video is because we just arent seeing what the manufacturer claims. We were told by local apps engineers that the 117G could stream video almost eight miles, point to point in manpack configuration (5 Watts).

We actually saw a little over one mile in a manpack configuration. With an external 50 watt amplifier it was slightly more than three miles.
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Old 07-25-2014, 15:37   #10
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In the class room it all works great. We have a few 117Gs on loan from Harris that we are using to test a new item we are developing.

The reason I asked about the range the 117G can stream video is because we just arent seeing what the manufacturer claims. We were told by local apps engineers that the 117G could stream video almost eight miles, point to point in manpack configuration (5 Watts).

We actually saw a little over one mile in a manpack configuration. With an external 50 watt amplifier it was slightly more than three miles.
If I remember, the 152A can't even do 5 Watts which I imagine would limit it even further than the 117G. Plus on top of that, I think there are bandwidth restrictions for using it CONUS.
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Old 07-25-2014, 15:40   #11
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If I remember, the 152A can't even do 5 Watts which I imagine would limit it even further than the 117G.
Nevermind that, I'm retarded. It was the bandwidth numbers between the 117G and the 152A. Wattage is the same.
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:04   #12
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How does this Wave relay work? I've only messed with ANW2C on the 117G and 152A in a classroom environment and naturally it was made to sound like it was the best thing ever.
The easiest (and shortest) way to explain it is to give you a link to it here:

http://www.persistentsystems.com/man...ble-unit-gen4/


The thing to remember is that what ever peripheral device(s) you are using, their performance ultimately boils down to the radio thats doing all the work. All of the mfrgs have cool add ons and peripherals like the ruggedized Android phone or android tablet for video and or SA type user interfaces and or software suite packages. Some people see the neat looking peripherals or the software interface and forget that the radio is what is enabling that software/video suite to do what it is doing. It's easy to get lost in the forest due to all the peripheral trees so to speak. If you find a gee whiz software suite or interface/GUI that appeals to you, or piece of hardware like a tablet, remember, its a peripheral and you should be able to plug it into any radio at the end of the day. The mfgrs wants you to buy it as a package obviously but some times it is easy to see that this set of peripherals and this radio might be a better combo for what ever your requirements are.


As was mentioned, all mfgrs had to submit a white paper before hand on their product(s). However, when push comes to shove, it is often seen that some mfgrs white paper claims don't match with reality. Those limitations are usually quickly spotted but in some, it may take some deeper testing or time with the system to finds its quirks/downside.

Not all mfgrs MANETS are created equal, some work better than others and do more with less power output and fewer nodes in the system than others. The other thing to remember is that the mfgr knows how to use his product and any others he has with him in the demo may also best know how to ensure the system works and position themselves automatically so that the net stays up and functional. It's a bit of gaming the system and knowing how the Tech works. When you have guys carefully positioning themselves in static positions, they aren't being realistic as our environment is fluid, such as clearing/working on an objective and moving through it as a unit. The system should be able to best "heal" itself and work regardless of how the man worn units and or other radios on non humans are positioned in the environment. Some of the systems are only capable of having one or a couple of people watching video at a time, others can have more watching video from different input sources at the same time but video is always the first to drop off once the data becomes too much for the pipe to handle. The way each mfgrs system handles that varies as well.

The other obstacle to tackle is going from MANET to regular comms, it can be done but its not gonna happen without basically a TOC type of platform be it i a dedicated vehicle or location where the "Hub" (my word) can take the manet traffic and then convert into comms as we know it.

Encryption is also another topic but I will for go it here for obvious reasons.


Again, I listed IMO, the best of them out there at this time. And I'll say again, the Rifleman's radio system is a huge joke and a money pit the Army is trying to justify. The only people I've run into that "like" the Rifleman radio are those pushing/supporting its existence. It's a square peg for a round hole IMO.
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Old 09-15-2014, 14:17   #13
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The persistent system radio has been talked about in depth and I can't add much more than my own experience with them. Recently I experimented with my students and "rigged" them up before their land navigation course. I've attached a screen capture to help you visualize the Ad-hoc method it uses to stay linked. I do agree that the MPU-4 is hands down the best system right now. The trelisware RPECS is a close second.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20140726_210615_resized_1.jpg (80.4 KB, 75 views)
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:47   #14
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My two cents on the matter is a subject that we can't go into great detail on this forum, its the classification of the networks.

I agree with most comments here, I have used Wave for nearly 3 years now and it is the most versatile. It is extremely flexible when it comes to peripherals as well as easy to setup through the webGUI. With that said, my experience is that it performs better in an urban, rather than rural environment. I used a 900MHz version in a jungle environment and got a bit better penetration but not enough to justify switching to those freqs. I would use wave relay if I knew I was going to be able to throw my tough box full of MPU's and tough box of cameras in a truck and walk those into a safe house or where ever with reliable AC power. Otherwise I wouldn't pack them into the field.

I have limited experience with Trellisware but our GSB seems to like it thus far but I have heard the same complaint that cabling is a PITA.

It has taken me almost three years to jump on the ANW2 bandwagon. Ultimately the reason why I now fully support it is due to the classifications allowed on the net. Yes it is slower, yes the peripherals aren't as good and expensive as hell but at least there are no questions when it comes to sensitive information being exchanged. I can now carry one radio system to pass voice and data. Before the 152s I was carrying three radio systems: 148 (intrateam), 117 (BLOS) and finally wave (high speed intrateam data). This was BS and any non-echo was about ready to kill me.

In all, it mostly boiled down to the BLOS aspect. One way or another we need airtime because the bottleneck was using HPW for over the horizon, classified comms. Rather than having to strip all sensitive data over a wave network through civ internet, I would rather see our ANW2 net get the BLOS capability so from the point of origin to the end user its secure.

My final thought is that a lot of people are jumping on the Wave and Trellis train due to some their "other" endusers. Also people seem to really dislike Harris. We need to continue to push the comms envelope, therefore the pressure Persistant and Trellis is putting on Harris is awesome. I recommend giving ANW2 a serious look, we hit a brick wall eventually with Wave. Unless you can get special memos authorizing cool guy permissions to pass certain kinds of traffic, you will encounter the same issue.
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Old 03-08-2015, 00:13   #15
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Nevermind that, I'm retarded. It was the bandwidth numbers between the 117G and the 152A. Wattage is the same.
ANW2C Wattage is restricted to 5 W.

117G output max is 20W (SAT)

152A output max is 5W, 10W with SATCOM burst on.

Frequency range is different (ceiling for 117G and 152A is 2GHZ/870MHZ respectively).

WB/NB channel spacing will be different as well. Look at CPA for the "Range" setting. Each Radio will have a different max throughput and channel spacing.
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