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Old 03-21-2019, 12:57   #16
tonyz
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A simple hypothetical in order to make a point...

...my neighbor consumes a snootfull of JACK and drives his CAR into a bunch of kids on the sidewalk...killing 10 young innocents...

Would anyone in their right mind seriously suggest that we ban CARS in our neighborhood? That is, all otherwise law abiding neighbors shall henceforth be without the use and possession of CARS because of the action of this murderous hypothetical individual.

Similarly, would elites seriously suggest that we ban JACK (and all forms of alcohol) for the otherwise law abiding neighbors?

No, this ban is about power and perception - there is an undeniable agenda by many - to deny private ownership of firearms...how’s that working out for the folks in Venezuela?
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Last edited by tonyz; 03-21-2019 at 15:38. Reason: Typos
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:00   #17
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To bring everyone in to speed on how firearms laws work in NZ:

A-Cat: bolt action or semi-auto that has no freestanding pistol grip, no flash suppressor, no mag great than 7 rounds, although suppressors are viewed quite reasonably here, health/safety wise. This in Luke’s sporting modified ARs, HK SL8’s, etc.

B-Cat: pistols, highly controlled with minimum barrel length of 4in. Closely managed by serial #, limited quantity of ownership, very little pistol related crime due to close control.

C-Cat: Collectibles, serial number controlled, but legal privilege to own everything up through and including Maxim machine gun, MAG58, Russian PK, Browning M2, Oerlikon 20mm, Bofors 40mm

D-Cat: Dealer license

E-Cat: Military Style firearms such as M4, Sig, AK, etc.

——-

The government just announced the end of all semi-auto firearms(possibly unclear), except rimfire.

——-

Firearms ownership is a privilege that requires a license.

The license lasts 10 years.

The License requires taking a safety course, in-home in-person interview and security inspection family interviews, multiple in-person referee interviews.

The NZ Police did an excellent job of responding to the active shooter.

However, they failed to conduct an in-person in home interview and security inspection, they did not interview his family(he is Australian), and his character references were only known to him from an internet chat room.

The Police also allowed his application to be lodged in a district considered to be weak in vetting, rather than his home district in Dunedin.

I’ve been a referee for dozens of my soldiers and friends applying for their firearms licenses.

In every case the process has been very thought and comprehensive.

Not in this case apparently.

This information is based on a retired NZ Police Arms Officer Joe Green who during his career was widely regarded as having a very fair and balanced viewpoint on firearms and the application of relevant law.

He claims to have sources in Police that show the Police failed multiple times in vetting the offender.

The process was not followed by Police, 50 are dead, 50 are injured, thousands are irrevocably effected, and 250,000 law abiding sportsmen and women have had their privileges revoked before root cause has been determined.
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyz View Post
A simple hypothetical in order to make a point...
I'm not a fan of odds because if someone is trying to kill you it's a rather binary thing going on... but statistically your premise has much more to support it. Let's ban those cow-farting machines now!

The proscription of arms has ALWAYS led to bad things done by bad people in the name of them retaining & consolidating power.
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:15   #19
tonyz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger52 View Post
I'm not a fan of odds because if someone is trying to kill you it's a rather binary thing going on... but statistically your premise has much more to support it. Let's ban those cow-farting machines now!

The proscription of arms has ALWAYS led to bad things done by bad people in the name of them retaining & consolidating power.
And don’t forget how much damage alcohol has done.

You don’t typically ban the implement in a free country - you punish the murderer.

In a perverse sense - doesn’t the ban actually feed into the NZ murderer’s professed beliefs and to a large segment of his audience?

No, a ban on the ownership of private firearms has too often been a pretext for disaster.

There are folks that should not be allowed to be near weapons - criminals, mentally ill, etc., etc., but to deny a natural right to law abiding and stable folks is a slippery slope.
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Last edited by tonyz; 03-21-2019 at 13:17.
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:18   #20
Old Dog New Trick
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Quote:
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The process was not followed by Police, 50 are dead, 50 are injured, thousands are irrevocably effected, and 250,000 law abiding sportsmen and women have had their privileges revoked before root cause has been determined.
Or, in other words (he was under police observation) and it was ‘allowed’ to happen to move the political agenda.

It’s so frustrating to see time and again the failure of law enforcement to enforce the current laws as they are written.
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:26   #21
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Or, in other words (he was under police observation) and it was ‘allowed’ to happen to move the political agenda.

It’s so frustrating to see time and again the failure of law enforcement to enforce the current laws as they are written.
Very interesting point.

Time-and-time again these whackos have been known to authorities. But, it is far easier for politicos to ban firearms than to actually focus on shortcomings in the system.

If you read the murderer’s manifesto - he essentially points out that banning the tool would not have stopped him from murder.
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Old 03-21-2019, 13:45   #22
Old Dog New Trick
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Flagg, your local information reads like Fast and Furious (DOJ gun running not the movie) and for that matter sex trafficking and prostitution in South Florida Spa’s. Let’s let a certain amount criminal activity continue while we build an air tight case...only something else happened along the way. In our case a CBP officer got killed, a billionaire football team owner got caught and in your case 50 people died while worshipping their God by a self-declared nut case who should have never been allowed to have guns.
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Old 03-21-2019, 19:55   #23
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Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Or, in other words (he was under police observation) and it was ‘allowed’ to happen to move the political agenda.

It’s so frustrating to see time and again the failure of law enforcement to enforce the current laws as they are written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Flagg, your local information reads like Fast and Furious (DOJ gun running not the movie) and for that matter sex trafficking and prostitution in South Florida Spa’s. Let’s let a certain amount criminal activity continue while we build an air tight case...only something else happened along the way. In our case a CBP officer got killed, a billionaire football team owner got caught and in your case 50 people died while worshipping their God by a self-declared nut case who should have never been allowed to have guns.
I just don’t know Fellas. I honestly don’t know.

What I do know is that:

in my 2 anecdotal examples of being vetted for a firearms license here(initial and renewal);

As interviewee for my wife’s license;

My wife as interviewee for me;

As a referee for many, many soldiers of mine and friends;

We have never seen anything but consistent and careful application of firearms licensing law and policy with increasing interviewee and referee questioning around not just violence but mental health and well being.

All done to the letter

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...ontrol-officer

I must state clearly the article is based on sources claimed by a single retired police officer, but he has an excellent reputation of being a balanced, consistent, and fair person in his prior role.

Occasional errors happen at times, but these allegations demand transparent investigation and comprehensive process audit in this case.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:53   #24
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Yeah, I don’t know either. There are just so many things with all these situations that make you go hmm?

I doubt that any logical person would allow a tragedy to happen on their watch but at the same time inaction and bureaucracy cause people to take a sit back and watch mentality.

In my experience and opinion there is very little mass crime and murder that couldn’t have been prevented in the days and hours before it happened if people truly listened to what people in distress/rage are saying.

The “Minority Report” of policing is coming with the advent of AI and every electronic listening device surrounding our daily lives (Google, Alexia, smartphones, etc...) The liberal utopian dream will be to control all aspects of our life from pre-birth to the grave. The “thought police” will listen and record everything spoken and every key stroke on a search engine. Visit a website even accidentally and be placed on a “watch list” it’s already happening so it’s just a matter of refinement.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:11   #25
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The hilarity of the precedent is the hilarity of the consequence.

I've heard (and made the argument myself) that blaming the shooter is like blaming the car for a vehicular homicide. What people don't want to grasp (or simply cannot grasp) the nuance is that the blame is not at all the issue any more than the culprit isn't really the issue. The left is just playing the long game so they can slowly consolidate power and run everyone's lives "their way" - "blame" is just the vehicle they will use to get there. Blame the device - repeatedly - press it - press it repeatedly - the device is the cause.
The DEVICE is the cause.
The DEVICE is the CAUSE
THE.DEVICE.IS.THE.CAUSE.
...the manufacturer of the device must be stopped.

Enter the leftists that have spent the last seven years slowly tossing sand into the gears trying to pass the lawsuit that would allow victims to sue the manufacturer. How long can a company stay in business once the law has allowed anyone slighted to sue the maker instead of the doer?

It is the precedent that leftist are in search of. Once a gun manufacturer has been sued out of business, they will have legal precedent.
You think its hilarious to compare guns to cars?
Has anyone forgotten the AOC manifesto about outlawing everything up to and including cows? Global warming is the existential threat - we gotta stop it.
Suing a gun company "makes sense" because leftist have spent decades moving Overton's Window in that direction - and here we are.
We've already watched activists sue cigarette companies for making cigarettes - precedent
Win a case against guns - more precedent to point to - soon we can start suing the auto industry for all of those DUI vehicular homicide cases. Eventually the activists will break an auto maker as well. Because the already have precedent - the Ford Pinto.
The left wont mind attacking cars in the name of "climate change" because the "real" left wont be impacted. Al Gore will still live in an high impact mansion and will still get around town in a fuel burning car while being protected by armed security guards.
AOC has no problem jet setting and eating hamburgers while campaigning to outlaw meat and airplanes and without your 1st and 2d amendment rights, what are you going to do about it - silly peasants.............


but hey -its all about the children-
right?
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Last edited by Box; 03-22-2019 at 09:14.
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Old 03-22-2019, 17:02   #26
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Looking back, the "Lord of the Rings" movies seem rather prophetic these days. With the way NZ is bending over and exposing their necks for the Orks/Uruk-hai to hack their heads off, it won't be long now before the islamists turn NZ into a real world Middle Earth, specifically, the dark land of Mordor. I mean, heck, the mountain they used as Mt. Doom in the movie is located there. Coincidence? I think not. And to recall that many NPC were up in arms and said Tolkien made the "Freedom-Loving Men of the West" vs. the Dark Forces of Mordor was an "oh-so-cleverly" veiled dog-whistle reference to the current conflict between the primitive Islamic world and the evolved Western world. Perhaps they were correct after all?
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