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Old 10-28-2007, 04:22   #1
BMT (RIP)
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Two Years and All I got was a Lousy Tab

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Posted Fri 26 October 2007 01:26 PM
As a recent graduate of the SF Q course, and being an 18X a lot of things have been running through my head about how the past two years of my life has went and how it could have been used some of the time, to accomplish more important tasks, critical tasks that we XRAYS aren't aware that the rest of the Army does. Maybe it is because the leaders don't realize, or even care that we get the training, or just donít know how to approach the problem but from my knowledge that canít be too astray, 18X's donít know jack about how the regular army is run, common military courtesies and the base culture of the army, and things like REAL unit rank structure and relationships between officer and enlisted (I have a first name basis with many captains from my courses and never really see day to day interaction with E's and O's)

The Q course lacks skills and knowledge that is relevant to the time at hand.

The Q course now pretty much in a nutshell is changing, however the base of knowledge put out is still the same as it were 10 years ago. Teach basic patrolling, be a man among men, be a leader, and LEARN A LANGUAGE. I will tell you that a specialist does not get any leadership experience unless you demand it, which will piss many people off in the process. However, the weathered E-7 gets all of the leadership, and all of the burden. He has the basic troop leadership behind him, why should it fall on him? Is the lonely E-4 not capable of handling the same responsibilities. He should be, right?

Notice the capitalization. Being bi-lingual has been the keystone of SF, train indigenous forces. Though everyoneís combat mission in Iraq and Afghanistan is similar in nature, using translators because of all the dialects in the countries is the accepted way of communicating.

The biggest problem I have in all of the training has been language. Patrolling sucks, but you find purpose in it. You know that youíre gaining knowledge of your strength, weakness, and that of others. Teaching those skills however, is never focused on (when working in Sage it was hard to convert those skills into common sense, I didnít understand why the g's couldnít comprehend a mission)

The problems with Language

-native speakers of Spanish have a hard time with the test

-DLPT 5 in Arabic, French, and Spanish is way too hard for a 3 month, and 4 month course


-there is no way to take a 18 month DLI course and crunch it down to a 2 week block, another 2 week block, and a 3 month block spread out throughout a year. It cannot be done, stop doing it.

-no one will pass the DLPT5 in Arabic in the year 2008 until changes are made to the program

-years ago the language proficiency was O+/0+/0+ which is a very weak understanding of the DLPT. That is getting about 25/65 questions right on the test. It used to be a 20 week course.

-now the standard is raised to 1/1 with a 16 week program, that has seen no change in the way they go about teaching the language, do the math, no amount of studying can immerse you to a understanding to pass it

-there is open conversation of the SOLT testing. Teachers openly told us the answers, and we cheated with another to pass. Now I have a friend that had his language changed to French from Arabic because he failed a SOLT test

-my language was Arabic. I took the Arabic DLPT and passed with a 1/1. My friend failed with a 0+/1 and had to retrain and missed his sage class by 2 months

-I had to relearn the Arabic alphabet in depth 3 times because of the length in between training, wonít even go to the lost vocabulary

-hereís the kicker. I blind shot GUESSED on 40/65 questions on the language test. I donít know how I passed, and I can tell you that all of us who took the test had informed guesses on 80% of the test. I do not know Arabic despite studying 4 hours a night for 3 months straight

-thereís no way you can tell me that you are successfully training SF operators to speak Arabic with the program at hand


PROBLEMS WITH THE Q COURSE

If you want us to be rangers, just send us to the school

If you want us to be linguists, send us to DLI

I know every military program and unit is not perfect. But for a program that is so highly boasted throughout the world training the future SF warrior, I feel cheated, and I hope my training will be enough for the challenges ahead.


The horse and pony show at SWC is disgusting. Nothing is changed in the programs because the leadership isn't aware of it. The burden on the lower leadership would be too much if the truth came out of what was really going on in some of the programs.

I went to the range a combined 2 weeks in 2 years. I Only qualified once on a paper target. Only put around 500 rounds downrange.

I never once drove a humvee or shot a .50 cal. I only learned how to turn one on when I was walking down Ardennes.

This is what you want your future warrior to know?

Thatís only a start to the lack of soldier skills we are allotted time to be current on.



Robin sage is so canned anymore that the training value is almost zilch. Just because two students were shot doesn't mean you have to take the risk assessment equal to a dry fire battle drill, and G's that come out of character after the first day

The reaction to this might be "youíll learn these things when you get to your team"

Well you know what? I am sick of hearing that. In basic training I heard the same thing "youíll learn that once you get to your unit" Well guess what, I am here, and thereís a plethora of things that I donít know, wish I would of known then, or even had the resources to achieve the mission.

These things combined is why the Q course is a waste of 2 years, and the 18xray program is a JOKE

Currently, a few of my friends are being threatened to have their languages changed. They are in the first part of BLITZ and the class ahead of them had their failures of language REMOVED FROM THE COURSE COMPLETELY! GOODBYE! This is most likely due to SWC meeting their numbers for the fiscal year. You failed your language. See you next year, itís too bad you MOS qualified and will forget most of the skills you learned. Itís too bad you couldnít learn Russian and Arabic in 4 months. What a joke.

Itís a sad truth but I would have done just as well at group if I went from basic training to 10th group.

Gripes and complaints they might be, but this is an annoyance of a lot of 18X not being prepared, and a lot of prior enlisted ideas about the course, not just mine.

I thought I would put them out there so maybe you older cats can see how things are now, those coming to the course can be aware of, and maybe things will change a bit.

I am greatful for the fact that the Q course isn't what it used to be, however.

P.S. The title to this thread is a joke.

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Old 10-28-2007, 05:28   #2
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It's dog and pony show

It's Dog and Pony show not Horse and Pony.


Edited to add: I see a number of places where self motivation, after hours study and weekend practice could have helped the young lad.

In two years he never figured out it was only the begining and not the "end all"? The course is the course, now the real learning begins. Does a truck driver in the Army for a few years have that much over a sharp 18X? No.

Last edited by Pete; 10-28-2007 at 06:22.
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Old 10-28-2007, 06:23   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
It's Dog and Pony show not Horse and Pony.
Unless it's an equine event...

Heck, after 21 years in service I didn't know everything. Even if I thought I had learned everything (because sometimes there are those who think that), I would probably have been a realy ass to be around.

Seems like there might be this misconception that the learning stops once the hat gets planted on your head....

Life can be a pretty lengthy course.
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Old 10-28-2007, 06:38   #4
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"The Lousy Tab"

1.STOP COMPLAINING,you sound like a little girl whining.
2.GET TO WORK.Study harder and longer,concentrate on the subject of
learning the language,get help from the instructors.Spend more time in the language lab.NEVER QUIT......If you don't like the current SF training work to change it,write a memo with positive suggestions for reshaping the SF training.READ THE SPECIAL FORCES CREED...NOW READ IT AGAIN...If that
is not you than you are in the wrong place...move out and get on with your life....Just my 02,Regards,tom kelly
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Old 10-28-2007, 06:45   #5
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Ok guys! How long do you think this boy will last on a team?



BMT
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Old 10-28-2007, 06:56   #6
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Ah, he has to get there first

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMT View Post
Ok guys! How long do you think this boy will last on a team?



BMT
I just have this vision of him coming into the SGM's office, plopping down in a chair, putting his feet up on the SGM's desk and "Hi, Pete, I ain't too smart but I want a spot on your best High Speed, Low Drag Team."

I think his education will begin to pick up speed real quick.

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Old 10-28-2007, 06:58   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
I just have this vision of him coming into the SGM's office, plopping down in a chair, putting his feet up on the SGM's desk and "Hi, Pete, I ain't too smart but I want a spot on your best High Speed, Low Drag Team."

I think his education will begin to pick up speed real quick.

Pete
Speed like terminal velocity?
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:33   #8
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You have a link to this?
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:44   #9
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http://forums.military.com/1/OpenTopic

Army Forum and then under SF Forum.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:45   #10
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Google got this

http://forums.military.com/eve/forum.../9370047251001

Also got this from his profile.
TheLengendaryFailure
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A few good replies so far. I like the 60 year old college student's reply.

Quote:
You know something what a strange thread started here, A person goes thru S.F. training and complains. Claims he has the tab, but won't show it on his profile. Hmmmmmmm..

Maybe if he is so dissatified with the S.F. he should give the tab back.

I don't recall any training making one a expert coming out of the box of training, but rather the basic knowledge of what needs to be done.

You take that, mix it with experience and wal-la, you might have a expert..notice I said "Might" that is left up to person wheter to apply his experience with what he was taught at school.

I'm back in college (age 60) and I can say the same thing about that education also.

But as time and "Experience" has taught me, its just a stepping stone, its the path to success, the rest is up to me wheter to make it a success or failure.

Don't find him listed in AKO
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Old 10-28-2007, 11:15   #11
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Screen Name

What a screen name?

Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?

Liked the bit about - he would be an 18A if only.
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Old 10-28-2007, 11:51   #12
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Smells fishy...

The most discouraging aspect to this guy and his post is that he didn't get weeded out to begin with.

For all his learning this guy didn't seem to get one once of wisdom - He sounds like a fool. It's a bummer to even think about a man like this wearing the SF tab. From what I observe, the Q is only one piece of the puzzle - the first piece - the first step in a long journey. The "whine generation" often, it seems to me, wants to skip experience and get handed the Prize. A Prize that can only come with years in the field with a team. I've been on this board regularly for months and I haven't read about any short-cuts.

As a former language teacher with an MA in Linguistics, let me say - Classroom settings for language are NEVER ideal - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER - this is not the Q's problem. It is simply an educational reality. What would this guy suggest - Go on deployment to the Box with NO EXPOSURE to Arabic? Or, to spend two years isolated in a language school? Give me a break... Both those options would be worse. So, folks prepare the best way they can - sitting their butt down and learning from books, tapes, videos, and instructors for a finite period = PREPPING to go to the field. Not perfect, but as good as it gets in this imperfect world.

In addition to be being a naive cry baby - this dude strikes me as an immature ingrate and is walking around with a big chip on his soldier (that hopefully someone will knock off).

Finally, IMO, this guy's whole memo smells fishy to me.


Three Soldier Dad....Chuck



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Old 10-28-2007, 12:10   #13
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Shot Over...........
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Old 10-28-2007, 12:11   #14
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Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?
My understanding is you hit
E4 = 9-12
E5 around = 18 Ė 24 (still in Q)
But you hit your team as an E5 and get the E6 about 6-12 months in
I think youíre lucky to hit E7 until after youíve been in a team for at least 4 years (guess)

I'm not a BTDT and I am far from perfect and still learning SF ways, but I would expect some guy who has made it thru the Q course to have far better SA then to bitch on a public forum.

Some of the stuff he discusses about Language doesnít add up with the information I have.

His Rank seems a bit off and heís lost all his Language skills between blocks, give me a break talk to your mate who is also learning Arabic, there everywhere. Sesh!

Sounds like a poser who didn't make it to me, and wants to tell the world about how it wasn't his fault.

out

out
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Old 10-28-2007, 13:19   #15
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Quote:
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...I am not a BTDT...

...he’s lost all his Language skills between blocks, give me a break talk to your mate who is also learning Arabic, there everywhere...
Scimitar:

When your time after class, between language blocks, is spent studying surgery and anesthesia or prepping and cleaning til 2am when you have to be in class again at 6, or you are studying radio wave propagation and antenna theory, or a myriad of other things covered during the MOS portion(s) of the SFQC you can feel free to comment on how you are sustaining proficiency in your target language between blocks 1 & 2 and 2 & Blitz. Its easy to arm chair quarterback the guy when you are still sitting on a bean bag. I will be anxious to see if you feel the same after not formally studying language for 40 weeks during the Delta course.

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Last edited by Surgicalcric; 10-28-2007 at 13:43.
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