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Roguish Lawyer 07-01-2020 21:20

OODA Loop Tactics
 
Yeah, I know we have discussed this before. After a great conversation with another member of the board, I’ve decided I need to come back and spend more time here. So humor me, please, and offer some thoughts on this topic. :)

miclo18d 07-02-2020 13:39

OMG you could write tomes on this subject!

Certainly not hard to understand, but much harder to implement.

Make your opponent react to your actions and as he is reacting to that you change and make him react again, etc. It leaves the opponent always in a state of reaction and never in action against you.

It can be done in every aspect of life from wrestling (jamming a thumb up the keister) to a courtroom (surprise witnesses (?) if that’s a thing, I watch a lot of court dramas)

In the military, an excellent example would be the ambush, so devestatingly effective your enemy shouldn’t have ANY time to react.

I always considered training like you fight, training harder than reality, and changing your tactics often as good OODA loop philosophy. Obviously it was originally a concept for pilots in a dogfight but the principals are the same.

Hopefully, we can all get more nuanced with specific subject matter examples.

frostfire 07-02-2020 14:21

So how to interrupt the marxist/blm/antifa/sjw ooda loop and put them on reactive mode???

Other than turning 45 to 46 of course

Seems the marxist is the one putting conservatives on reactive mode. Taking over the mind of the youth via public/ higher education accomplishes that

Chaz dwellerS did experience ooda interruption

Flagg 07-02-2020 17:54

One of my favourite topics! Full disclosure: John Boyd fanboy here.

I get to work virtually(non-resident fellow at Krulak Center for Innovation & Creativity, Marine Corps University) with a Marine Corps Major who literally wrote a book on John Boyd.

Available free here: https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/AN...-08-094859-167

The Marines appear to have implemented far more of Boyd's thinking that the USAF did for fighter pilots, including in their very well known "Warfighting" doctrinal handbook.

I think MCU has the bulk of John Boyd's primary source materials as Boyd conducted a lot of long presentations and talks but didn't really publish himself.

Personally, I think Clausewitz is a bit overcooked & overrepresented in some respects compared to Boyd, but I'm a huge fan of Clausewitzian "friction".

I just had an article published by US Army TRADOC Mad Scientist Initiative covering Clausewitz's friction combined with Boyd's velocity: https://madsciblog.tradoc.army.mil/2...11352539062500

Personally, I think the principle character of war was attrition, is maneuver, and will be velocity.

With the possibility of automation and cheap robotics seeing us spinning thru attrition, maneuver, and velocity akin to Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act.

OODA loop also has applications outside of warfare as it is strikingly similar to Build, Measure, Learn type of cycles found in Design Thinking and Lean Start Up methodologies.

PSM 07-02-2020 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by miclo18d (Post 660344)
Make your opponent react to your actions and as he is reacting to that you change and make him react again, etc. It leaves the opponent always in a state of reaction and never in action against you.

Sounds like what the Dems are doing to the Trump admin. Time to break the loop.

Badger52 07-03-2020 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSM (Post 660355)
Sounds like what the Dems are doing to the Trump admin. Time to break the loop.

I think recognizing this aspect is just as important as being the one ahead of the loop. And one of the ways to break that loop is to attack through, in a way that is not (hopefully) expected by the party that thinks they have you by the short-hairs.

The current political examples have relevance simply because of the demonstrated history of those on the political right - or simply traditional-value Americans wanting to be left alone - to be more reluctant to leave the safe refuge of 'civility' even when they KNOW they are in a tight turning fight with a MiG-17. The other side knows this history like a Sunday hymnal and uses it. (CSB's old question of "can't we just shoot them?" comes to mind.)

So when engaged from a position of strength one has to not take the UN position of retiring, but rather move to the opposite "I'll see your GPMG and raise you an A-10." Force THEM to make the value judgement as to whether they want to continue their behavior or concede a particular battle to you.

And, of course, one of the ways to always knock your opponent out of their comfort zone is to have trained and laid in plans that can be quickly executed as options to any countermove. This applies whether in battle, or in the years of research done to look at financial markets long-term, or decades to prepare the battlefield for the subjugation of an entire nation.

Paslode 07-03-2020 14:42

Correct me if I am wrong, reading the responses it appears that this tactic is much about creating a situation that the target responds too, and during their response you zap them with a new event that requires a response.

Reading the topic Metal Shop 7 with Mr. J popped into my mind. It began with a flaming paper air plane into his hair, it climaxed at year end with a sabotaged intercom and a exploding lawn mower engine. This went on for an entire year, the culprits involved and events were ever changing. It took a year for the staff to nail down who the 'Ring Leader' was, prior to that there was a daily parade of characters to and from the Principles office.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostfire (Post 660345)
So how to interrupt the marxist/blm/antifa/sjw ooda loop and put them on reactive mode???

Would it be possible to do this within the Law?

GratefulCitizen 07-05-2020 17:33

Don't have much general information to offer, but I did have extensive experience in a narrow application of OODA loops:
Dealing with real world assault/unarmed combat.

Spent about 3 1/2 years off and on working security at a violent night club.
The OODA loop very much mattered.

In the real world, before openly showing intent to assault, the aggressor will often "front".
He'll try to get within a range where he can throw the first strike without you being able to react (getting inside your OODA loop).

It's important to prevent this, and demonstrate that you're aware of range.
There are issues of body positioning and such, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

If you keep him beyond that critical range, and he still intends to assault you, he'll have to close that gap, and will usually attempt a long range strike while closing.
The strike is almost always a big overhand right, unless they're left-handed, in which case their right foot will normally be forward.

This is where the OODA loop is important.
You must close range on him simultaneously.

Closing range makes it more difficult for him to land his strike accurately, and diminishes the power if it does land.
More importantly, it causes hesitation and/or inefficient subsequent actions on his part, because he's trying to process whether he should be on offense or defense.

After this initial closing of range, press the attack, and use whatever training/experience you have.
It may seem like a small thing, but in my experience it was critically important.

Against a well-trained fighter, things would be different.
But well-trained fighters are almost never the aggressor with this sort of thing.

In summation:
-maintain a range which requires them to aggressively close range before attacking (keeps them from getting inside your OODA loop)
-close range simultaneously when they move aggressively (gets you inside their OODA loop)
-press the attack (keeps you inside their OODA loop)

Closing range while being attacked is not a natural reaction.
It must be practiced, or you won't do it under stress.

Uman 07-06-2020 14:26

"Boyd’s OODA Loop (It’s Not What You Think)"
 
https://fasttransients.files.wordpre...looda_loop.pdf

One of the best discriptions of the OODA loop. Pay attention to the smaller oval and secondary connecting lines as this is where you what to operate, as in deception, manipulation, IO etc etc.

There is only one true picture of the OODA loop made by Boyd and this is why it is thought of incorrectly. It is not a set method.

I suggest you read and watch the videos of Boyd's presentations that are cited n the book.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/AN...-08-094859-167

Remember maneuver warfare is far more than the big blue arrow on the map in the TOC, it is dealing in the mental and moral elements of war, (think of those ovals and lines I talked about earlier)

Roguish Lawyer 07-07-2020 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by miclo18d (Post 660344)
(surprise witnesses (?) if that’s a thing, I watch a lot of court dramas)

LOL

A tactic I like to use in depositions every once in a while is to skip all of the introductory BS the witness's lawyer has told him to expect, and jump right to the toughest question I've got. :cool:

miclo18d 07-07-2020 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer (Post 660468)
LOL

A tactic I like to use in depositions every once in a while is to skip all of the introductory BS the witness's lawyer has told him to expect, and jump right to the toughest question I've got. :cool:

I can see the “oh shit” look of the witness in my mind when you do that. That is the legal version of getting inside someone’s OODA loop.

I’ve seen some interrogations that have used a similar tactic. It is profound!

And yes, you have to press the attack to maintain the advantage.

18XP 07-08-2020 00:48

OODA Theory from the horse's mouth
 
Nice little YXXTXXe rabbit hole here if you haven't seen it before.
https://yXXXXXXe/lzRqZnPVeJI

Boyd lecture on OODA Theory to a corporate audience recorded on VHS or earlier technology.

Team Sergeant 11-20-2020 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer (Post 660325)
Yeah, I know we have discussed this before. After a great conversation with another member of the board, I’ve decided I need to come back and spend more time here. So humor me, please, and offer some thoughts on this topic. :)

What is it you think you need to understand?

RCummings 11-20-2020 22:12

Damn good to read you TS! I sure as hell missed you.

Respectfully,

Bob

Ambush Master 11-21-2020 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by miclo18d (Post 660344)
In the military, an excellent example would be the ambush, so devestatingly effective your enemy shouldn’t have ANY time to react.

My Screen Name in here is one that I earned in SOG!! I've used it against NVA & Corporate Bigots!!! An Ambush Is An Ambush, whether it's with Words or Bullets!!!!!


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