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-   -   Two Years and All I got was a Lousy Tab (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16129)

Griv 11-17-2007 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FearMonkey (Post 186822)
Oh boo frickin' hoo. Guess what, when I put my Green Beret on all I could do was slap the dashboard of a Humvee like a monkey, and the only place I'd ever seen a .50 cal was in the movies. But you know what... I'm leaving for an advanced Humvee driving course in a couple weeks, and I can set head space and timing like a champ. Guess who's going to be riding shotgun on the Ma' Deuce in Iraq? I know when it's appropriate to use proper military courtesy and when things can be more relaxed. I've put more boatloads of rounds downrange learning transition drills, shooting and moving drills, and CQB training in the past couple months than in my entire time in the Army. Furthermore, we've got SFAUC coming up. I've already been to language refresher where I got a chance to dust the cobwebs off my Russian, and I've learned more about practical application of commo in the past 6 months than I ever did in the course.

And to top it all off... I'm just on the B-Team. So stop besmirching the reputation of my generation with your child-like incessant whining and go seek that knowledge and experience you want so badly. You earned that damned Green Beret... NOW ACT LIKE ONE!!

Great reply to that thread. Almost the same has gone for a lot of buddies that showed up to group and within months have been to numerous schools/ranges learning exactly what they didn't hit on during the 'Q'. *Edit in* Most of them are as well 18X's that don't have a "clue" this poster speaks of.

Daver 11-17-2007 23:44

2 years??
 
He probably got recycled somewhere if he was there 2 years! When I attended the SFQC, the ONLY guys who got to shoot were the 18B's anyway...maybe the O's shot a little, but that's it, so if he put 500 rounds downrange, he did more than most did back then and we turned out OK.

Max_Tab 11-18-2007 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daver (Post 189117)
He probably got recycled somewhere if he was there 2 years! When I attended the SFQC, the ONLY guys who got to shoot were the 18B's anyway...maybe the O's shot a little, but that's it, so if he put 500 rounds downrange, he did more than most did back then and we turned out OK.

I agree. The entire Q-course we went to the range once. We qualified on m-4 and pistol. And for the record that was the first time I had ever fired a pistol in the army.

Needle D 11-18-2007 01:24

My .02
 
In the 2002-2004 timeframe we went to the range twice during the whole course. I would agree that it was about 500 rounds for the whole course.

I don’t think that he is a poser, (some unfortunate team will get him) some of his gripes and whines are things that people going through the course really do see as faults. It did suck going to a team knowing they were going to count on you to get the job done and feeling like you knew nothing. However, that’s what it is supposed to be like. The team will take you and teach you when you don’t know how to do something. 18Bs will sign out M2s from the arms room to teach you how to do headspace and timing. 18Es will teach you how to turn on a PSC-5. 18Cs will tell you not to eat the C4. 18D will teach you how to pack a bullet wound. And the 18z well he will teach u everything else.

Basically you are a blank SF soldier when u get out of the course. Your team will mold and equip you to be a contributing member of the team.

deanwells 11-18-2007 08:00

He can whine all he wants...I'm sure he'll get a swift kick in the middle and learn the answers to all his gripes. 18 X's these days can make E-6 when they report to their team as long as the leadership deems him fit for promotion.

later,

dw

Para 11-18-2007 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete (Post 186799)
What a screen name?

Recent grad of the Q and his profile lists him as a SSG? OK you young stud muffin 18Xs, what is the fastest you're making E-6 these days?

Liked the bit about - he would be an 18A if only.

18X is not a functional MOS, it is a training MOS. Therefore,you can not be promoted to an NCO rank as an 18X. Sometimes, 18X's get lucky a get a set of 11B orders coming out of OSUT, in which case they are eligable for promotion should there records be ammended to reflect. If not, they are stuck at E4 until they graduate and get a 18 series MOS. If they have a functional MOS, they can go to the E5 board during MOS or langauge phase. All requirments for primary and secondary zone consideration remain in effect for someone with an Infantry MOS, i.e. 4 months TIS and 18 months TIS. No way he can make SSG as an Infantryman as requirements remain at 5 months TIG and 48 months TIS. From what I understand, primary and secondary zone requirements for promotion to E6 are waived for someone who has a 18 series MOS.

So, it is concievable that the kid could make E5 while in the Q Course. Then move to Group and because he is 18 series, go to the E6 board as soon as possible. I have seen it. Although, most Team Sergeants don't do this and make the kid prove himself before going to the board. I know one 18X who got out upon expiration of his contract still an E5.

As far as I know, E7 selection requirements still remain the same. Kid is going to need 2 years TIG and 6 years TIS in order to be eligable.

SF_VOL 11-18-2007 13:18

Quote:

The first page...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you young lads and other posters will notice the first page was all guys who had been through the Q Course, the second page is starting to get some that ain't started yet and some that never will.

For those that ain't yet and them that never will be, why don't we reserve the comments.

Fear Monkey, Crip you guys are fairly new out of the course so I'll let you do the heavy lifting now .

Pete
I'm new out of the course as well and have three years prior service as an 11B with the 101st so I'll add my thoughts also. Granted, as with any school in the Army, you're going to have complaints. Everyone does. Yes, I believe the language portion of the Q Course could definitely use some improvements! Yes, it would have been nice to shoot more. But while I was in the course and once I graduated the course, I fully understood that I was not going to learn everything there and be an expert at every single SF task. I knew, and still know that there is a ton of stuff that I haven't learned yet. And I'm looking forward to continuing on in my SF education through various schools, etc. That's the beauty of it all. You learn the basic SF skills in the course. After that, you get the opportunity to learn from the guys on your team or at other schools where others have experiences/knowledge that you don't have. In my opinion, to learn from others and to continuously add new tools to your tool box should be something that every new guy should strive for. I would never say that the time I spent in the Q Course was a waste of time. All in all, it was time very well spent that laid the ground work for everything to come.

rab97 12-18-2007 17:00

I too am a recent graduate. This guy will have a long and illustrious career as a support dude somewhere. The course isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good. The one thing this guy should have learned is the ability to learn on the fly and put the knowledge to use. I'm no SFAS cadre, but I'm willing to bet they assess candidates ability to pick up info quickly and put it to use. His true colors will shine through, and he won't last too long on a Team.

Gruzzen 12-21-2007 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Para (Post 189130)
18X is not a functional MOS, it is a training MOS. Therefore,you can not be promoted to an NCO rank as an 18X. Sometimes, 18X's get lucky a get a set of 11B orders coming out of OSUT, in which case they are eligable for promotion should there records be ammended to reflect. If not, they are stuck at E4 until they graduate and get a 18 series MOS. If they have a functional MOS, they can go to the E5 board during MOS or langauge phase. All requirments for primary and secondary zone consideration remain in effect for someone with an Infantry MOS, i.e. 4 months TIS and 18 months TIS.

This is a common mis-conception among everybody except 18x in the course. Every single 18X has a MOS. Every Single 18X is Airborne Qualifiied. The idea that we went through OSUT, graduated, and stayed, somehow, non-mos Qualified has always astounded me; especially when Tabbed guys and Officers say it.

We are all 11B and with the P identifier.

Currently, No 18X will get promoted while in the Q course to E5 until they hit their Primary zone, which is 36 months. Every single E3 gets promoted to E4 while in the Q course, and for the 18X's this usually happens like clockwork on their 1 year in service, or around that time. Usually before they start MOS. IF an E2 snags a 18X contract in Basic and did not enlist as an 18X to start as an E3 then they are usually promoted twice in a row.

.....

This system in place royally screws over those that do the 18D course. Everybody I started with have already Graduated and are E5 (some E6) while those of use in the 18D don't get promoted for almost 40 weeks later, mostly because "We haven't done anything". This is even after we are now qualified in 3 MOSes , 11B, S68W, and 18D. However, I can understand their reasoning, because there's alot of people that still fail out, and there's no need to kick E5's back to the RA if they aren't needed. Not only that, but we are X-rays. :)

Currently, those finishing their MoS phase are getting their E5 orders handed to them. That is, everybody except the 18D's as their orders are getting placed into their packets without a copy being given to the soldier. I've seen my E5, and 18D MOS orders, though we never recieved a copy, and nothing was put out to us as a class. All other MOS's are wearing E5's and have been given copies of their orders. This has been the norm for the previous 3 graduating MOS classes

....
Sorry about that interjection
...
Back to the Reason that so many people think that 18X is a MOS. It's placed in our ERB as our Primary MOS. It's not a MOS. It's a contract type. However, that seems to be the way that people everywhere understand it to be.


edit - Spelling, etc

Eagle5US 12-22-2007 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruzzen (Post 192733)

This system in place royally screws over those that do the 18D course. Everybody I started with have already Graduated and are E5 (some E6) while those of use in the 18D don't get promoted for almost 40 weeks later, mostly because "We haven't done anything". This is even after we are now qualified in 3 MOSes , 11B, S68W, and 18D. However, I can understand their reasoning, because there's alot of people that still fail out, and there's no need to kick E5's back to the RA if they aren't needed. Not only that, but we are X-rays. :)

You aren't qualified as an 18D until you graduate the Q course.

People that fail out after MOS phase are constant headaches....WHY? "Because I am an 18D who didn't finish the Q"
Translation - not an 18D

THe system has always been less favorable to 18D's...even when our medical portion alone was 56 weeks long. Guys (Bravos) went into the Q, graduated and were on a team for more than a year before we ever graduated. Guys would FAIL OUT of Fort Sam (yes, our first medical year was at Fort Sam 20 years ago), go to the Bravo or Charlie course, graduate, and STILL be operational for a year or more before we got to GP.

You aren't being screwed, you are being given the benefit of some truly incredible training that can be gotten no place else in the world. The focus of that training is saving the lives of the men who will depend on you to do exactly that. It can't be rushed, half assed, or "shortened" any more than it already has.
If you are seeking acceptance in SOF for rank - you picked the wrong MOS. Very few D's get picked up for E-8.

Think about your choices to this point - you may need to consider another one.

Eagle

The Reaper 12-22-2007 09:24

Gruzzen:

Nothing personal, and I think I understand your intent, but your post appears to confirm the bad stereotypes of 18Xs as whiny kids obsessed with themselves and not the force.

This gives ammo to those who would like to see the 18X program abolished and go back to everyone needing to be a Regular Army soldier first before becoming eligible to be "Special".

BTW, a Sergeant (E-5) is a Non-Comissioned Officer expected to lead soldiers in garrison and in combat. In an Infantry unit, an E-5 would be responsible for the health and welfare of up to a squad of a dozen troops. A soldier without any actual Army service or experience in a leadership capacity outside of the school environment should not be in charge of a squad, much less a company of indig in combat. Do you think that your education so far has adequately prepared you to lead a squad through company sized unit? That is why your predecessors many years ago were Spec 4s-7s, and were considered technicians, not leaders.

Unless I miss something, you are getting exactly what you were promised when you enlisted. If you want to get out of school more quickly and be promoted to SGT, fail your evals, and go to the 18B or 18C track. If you wanted to be an E-5 more than you want to be SF, drop from the program and the infantry unit you will be assigned to can make that decision about you.

Again, not trying to be harsh, just pointing out why you are in the position you are in. I suspect that you will make E-5 through E-7 quickly enough once you graduate, and don't worry, there will still be a war going on for you to participate in.

Best of luck.

TR

Gruzzen 12-22-2007 11:18

Eagle5US,

Don't get me wrong, I understand the level and type of training that we are given as 18D. I highly value it, as it's the first thing I've done that's truly challenged me. I completely understand the amount of responsibility placed on the Deltas.

I'm not looking for the Delta course to be shortened, if anything I think there are alot of parts of it that are rushed. There would be nothing wrong with extending the 18D course for another 6-8 weeks.



The Reaper,

I apologize if I come across as a whiny kid, that was not my intent. In answer to your question, yes, I know I can lead a squad/company size element. There is no doubt in my mind that I have the capability to do it.

I've been recommended for promotion twice to E5 by those in charge of me. Both times my packet has been kicked back and the reasoning was "Your an Xray. We dont' promote Xrays". Meanwhile, I've seen RA spec 4's get promoted to E5, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. Surprisingly, none of those soldiers are in the Q anymore.

Currently, there are mass promotions for all E4's to E5 being handed out to those that finish their MOS training. This is not happening with the 18D. As an 18D candidate who's finished my MOS training, I believe I have the right to ask why that is not occuring with the 18D's. The fact that I'm also an X-ray is coincidental.

Surprisingly, most X-rays, that are quality guys, are not here for the money, or the rank. The lack of promotions while in the Q, and the BS that we put up with for simply being an X-ray, are not going to change our minds about where we want to be and what we want to do.


Gruzzen

NousDefionsDoc 12-22-2007 11:27

E-5 is a pay grade. Sergeant is a rank. TR hit it spot on. If you wear the stripes, you should be capable of being a Sergeant anywhere in the Army. You should be able to perform the duties of the senior man in an infantry squad with the same level of professionalism as you can the junior-assed man on an A-Team.

I knew some E6 dudes that worked ok on a Team, but couldn't march 5 soldiers to chow. They were E6s, not SSGs. And that ain't right.

Para 12-22-2007 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruzzen (Post 192733)
This is a common mis-conception among everybody except 18x in the course. Every single 18X has a MOS. Every Single 18X is Airborne Qualifiied. The idea that we went through OSUT, graduated, and stayed, somehow, non-mos Qualified has always astounded me; especially when Tabbed guys and Officers say it.

We are all 11B and with the P identifier.

Currently, No 18X will get promoted while in the Q course to E5 until they hit their Primary zone, which is 36 months. Every single E3 gets promoted to E4 while in the Q course, and for the 18X's this usually happens like clockwork on their 1 year in service, or around that time. Usually before they start MOS. IF an E2 snags a 18X contract in Basic and did not enlist as an 18X to start as an E3 then they are usually promoted twice in a row.

Back to the Reason that so many people think that 18X is a MOS. It's placed in our ERB as our Primary MOS. It's not a MOS. It's a contract type. However, that seems to be the way that people everywhere understand it to be.

You are only an 11B if you get a copy of MOS orders. Maybe things have changed, but when I came back in as an 18X they were not issuing MOS orders for 11B upon completion of OSUT. The enlistment option was 18X and not 11X. We had to wait until we received MOS orders from the Q course. Those that were dropped and placed into RA were given orders at that time. The reason why 18X is placed in the ERB is so those at HRC / PERSCOM have an idea of what the soldier is doing when they inspect their ERB.

Gruzzen 12-22-2007 15:14

Para,

We were given our orders when we left for Airborne with our 201 files. Perhaps things have changed, they always tend to. It is the army after all.

Gruzzen


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